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I agree that making fun or otherwise criticizing someone's religion is in bad taste and can be hurtful.Muslim's seem to be especially susceptible. However, do you think this should be covered under free speech?
Vote YES if you think religious criticism should be allowed under free speech.
Vote NO if you think criticizing someone's faith should not be allowed under free speech.

  • 119 votes
  • 2 votes
  • 1 vote
Grecio 7 July 21
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49 comments (26 - 49)

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1

So you are saying I should be allowed to rub raw bacon all over the desk of my Muslim co-worker with no repercussions?

There is a difference in rubbing bacon and telling them that their religion is bad. Not the same thing, I don't think.

1
The first amendment guarantees the right of free speech to American citizens.  Next ?
Trod Level 5 Aug 5, 2019

Does that include publishing a caricature of Mohammad?

That is a right that you will not be jailed by the government.

That is not right to say what ever flies into your fool head and not have consequences.

The Constitution actually covers anyone in the US. Citizen or not.

Next?

Not every bit applies (voting) but the basic rights certainly do.

1

Of course. Why not? Respect God?

zesty Level 7 July 24, 2019

We have to look at the betterment of all people, whether there is a god or not.

@Grecio Yes. However respecting God will leave us in dark ages.

@zesty We don't need religion to tell us how to live. Religion spoils everything.

@Grecio Of course. Only the week minded need God.

1

Free Speech Laws is almost an oxymoron. There are only two regulations to speech that I agree with. I am against deceit and incitement to violence.

1

One big question is "Can one criticize Muslims for believing in Sharia law? Sharia law says to kill apostates. It also says cut off the hand of a thief, and stone adulters (sp) to death. Can we make fun of Mohammed?

Grecio Level 7 July 23, 2019

We should be able to... But most people are coerced into submission without even being Muslims … Salman Rushdie had a fatwa taken out against him … but the Americans did the same with Julian Assange … people in high office suggested to kill him.

1

People are entitled to respect, books and beliefs are not and therefore fair game
( sometimes I break that by calling the very religious "Sheeple" but . . . )

1

So, nobody could criticize atheists or agnostics either? What about people who have no opinion about existential concepts? How about people who believe in human sacrifice? I don't want to put the force of law behind anything that enables people who criticize anything to be apprehended or, at the very least, fined. Nope, I don't think so.

zeuser Level 9 July 22, 2019
1

I'm not going to vote on something so ridiculous. Most religion is just political ideology tied to an imaginary God to give it authority, so what happens if all political ideologies are tied to a God in the same way and no one's allowed to criticise any of them? Politics and religion are both about applying moral rules to how society is run, and different people have different, usually warped ideas about what morality is and how it works. Most such ideas are immoral rather than moral, and the ones which are tied to imaginary Gods are particularly lethal in their impact due to the capacity for stupid people to believe in them so strongly that no amount of reasoning can ever make them see sense.

1

Religion is an idea (or group of them), and no idea is above criticism or ridicule. Free speech is intended to protect the things that say what people don't want to hear, not just what they like to hear. Tough cookies if you don't like that I don't like your ideas. If I don't like that idea, now where are we?

1

It is ok. But for "the standard model"'s sake, evaluate case by case, and don't make enemies for no reason.

We need to think that religion is in many cases the basis of the person's culture and own identity.
It would be liking criticizing the nation, the culture, their most deep sense of self.
We all have this strong identity concept, it is an emotional an irrational attachment that is difficult to dissociate.

Any idea or group of ideas should be criticized. But is like hard core liberals, progressives , conservatives or any group when confronted with some ridiculous or bad parts of their thinking reacts as it was personally offended.

So yes, from a rational POV, criticize everything, from a strategic and effective POV, take care to not make enemies for your cause with no benefits at all, because generating strong defensive emotions will only create enemies.

Example; When a feminist says that "every man is a (sometimes they use "potential" ) rapist",

After that sentence you can explain its validity, the feelings, the studies etc. But the harm is already done, you already turned part of the audience against yourself

I don't want to hurt a Muslim's feelings, but that 7th century Sharia crap needs to get lost. We need a reform of Islam and some people are working on it. They need to reform it right out of the world along with every other religion. I know there are millions of Muslims that are just ordinary people trying to earn a living for their families, but this killing apostates, rule the world with Islam, and cutting off the female genitalia has got to go.

People need to stick to the problem and not call names. The Chinese have an old saying. "Fix the problem, not the blame.

@Grecio I won't even comment the mistakes you made about Islam, but lets pick up the whole idea of reforming a culture...

It is their culture, they can do whatever they want, it is not yours to decide.If the culture is making them have disadvantage over the rest of the world, they need to learn and change themselves.
Of course if they move to places where parts of their culture is unacceptable, they will be forced to adapt or live at the margin of society.

Today's Islam is not from 7th century, actually 7th century Islam would have developed a lot faster than Christianity, it was a so efficient culture that they grew fast and stable.
The problem was that they made a reform to the worse, and the colonization and hatred for western world blocked a good part of the sex XIX, XX and XI reformers.

Also the constant interference and effort to keep it unstable that western powers cause to the region do not contribute for that. Plus the protection of royal families that due to oil interests keep being supported by USA and Europe.

@Grecio Anyway, my original answer is the same, yes we should criticize, but sometimes we must think if we want to advance our cause or just release steam. If you just release steam you are probably just making enemies and hardening the position of the other.
I love to cite the episode of south park "Doubling Down", it shows perfectly even being wrong (and even knowing it) can become more radical as the critics are not strategic...

@Pedrohbds I am talking about Islam in reference to the West, particularly the USA. We aren't supposed to have people that live at the margin of society We don't punish people for their faith. There are Muslims in the US military. There are probably Muslims in our armed forces that died for our country. However, there is an element of Islam that is bad. All Muslims aren't bad people, of course, but we don't want rule by religion or Sharia law. There is an element of Christianity that is bad. Ordinary Christians and Muslims don't really hurt anything much. They don't even care whether or not their holy books are true or not.

@Grecio Notably that Gold Star Muslim mother and father that dtumph openly mocked.

1

Yes, you are free to criticize religion (or the government, or anything else) without censorship BY THE GOVERNMENT. You are not guaranteed immunity from the consequences of that speech, nor are you guaranteed a private platform for your views.

Yea, the Muslims will kill you if you disagree with them. Get most of Islam out of America. All Muslims in America should have to express whether they believe in the separation of church and state on the census. If they say "no" then kick them out.

@Grecio so, a religion test to be allowed in the country? Does this apply to Christians too? Cuz all that BS about sharia law in the US - that would NEVER happen. But we are moving more and more toward Christian rule. And LOTS of Christians truly believe that this is a “Christian Nation.”
Or does the separation of church and state thing only apply to brown people?

@A2Jennifer I agree with you. The census covers everybody. I didn't realize it until I asked a Christian yesterday if he believed in the separation of church and state and he said "NO". I was surprised. This Christian nation is the number one top seller of arms in the world and has been bombing some country for the last 4 decades. I do wish there was a way to reduce military spending so the USA could afford some things.

@A2Jennifer Jennifer, please don't play the race card. Islam isn't a race, it's an ideology. I am just saying that 7th-century crap doesn't belong in the western world. Look at what's happening in Europe. Many Islamist come to the USA as a form of slow Jihad.let's get rid of Christianity without having to deal with radical Islam at the same time.

I am sure we are free to criticize the constitution but do we want to get rid of the separation of church and state? I don't think so. Let's put the question on the census for everybody

@Grecio “get Islam out of America. All Muslims should have to express whether they believe in separation of church and state.” And yes, it is typically a race thing. Like when Trump calls places “shitholes” and only applies that term to places with mostly brown people, we know it is racist even though people pretend it’s not.
Evangelicals are WAY more of a threat to secular government. They shamelessly spout about how this is a “Christian Nation.” So why just Muslims should have to attest to their agreement with just this one part of the constitution?

1

free speech is free speech, criticize and make fun all you want, like comedians do, if some are offended by that it's their problem not yours, most fanatics are very thin skinned and are offended by criticism, and others are not, some even mistake making fun or criticizing is insulting, again, their problem not yours.

1

Rowan Atkinson: “Devil Sketch”
Hello, nice to see you all again. Now, as the more perceptive of you have probably realised by now, this is Hell, and I am the Devil. Good evening. You can call me Toby, if you like – we try and keep things informal here, as well as infernal. That’s just a little joke. Now, you’re all here for eternity, which I hardly need tell you is a sod of a long time, so you get to know everyone pretty well by the end, but for now I’m going to have to split you up into groups. Are there any questions? Yes? Um, no, I’m afraid we don’t have any toilets. If you’d read your Bible you would have seen that it was damnation without relief. So, if you didn’t go before you came then I’m afraid you’re not going to enjoy yourself very much … but then, I believe that’s the idea. Right, let’s split you up then. Can you all hear me still? CAN YOU HEAR ME AT THE RACK? All right, off we go … Murderers, over here. Looters and pillagers – over there please, thieves if you could join them, and bank managers … Fornicators, if you could step forward – my God there are a lot of you. Could I split you up into adulterers and the rest? Adulterers if you could just form a line in front of that small guillotine there. Okay … Americans, are you here? Look, I’m sorry about this, apparently God had some fracas with your founding fathers and damned the entire race into perpetuity. He sends particular condolences to the Mormons who He realises put in a lot of work. That’s the way the wafer crumbles. The Iranians, I’m afraid, can’t be with us – someone’s been holding them in purgatory for about nine months. Sodomites, over there against the wall. Atheists! Atheists? Over here please. You must be feeling a right bunch of charlies. Okay, and Christians! Christians? Ah yes, I’m sorry, I’m afraid the Jews were right. Okay, Moonies, maniacs, marmite eaters, male models, masochists, mass murderers and masseurs, if you could take a pew at the back - with the Methodists that is. Now, you’re the lot who used to kill whales, is that right? Ah, yes, I must remember - I’ve got some strips to tear off you bastards later. Everyone who saw Monty Python’s “Life of Brian” – I’m afraid He can’t take a joke after all. Alright now, one final thing. We’re trying to implement some kind of exchange scheme with the Lord God Almighty, or Cliff as we know him. Some of you will travel up and have a decade in heaven and we’re having some angels down here. Now, I hardly need tell you that in heaven you will be expected to behave in an exemplary manner, so I hope you will do the exact opposite – tear off their wings, use their haloes for frisbee practice, that sort of thing. Well, I have to go now, unfortunately, but Beelzebub here will show you the ropes ... and the chains, and electrodes. And I’d just like to leave you with a favourite joke of mine, if I may. Quite apt to the circumstances, I think, which goes something like: “Knock, knock. Who’s there? Death. Death wh…”

Interestingly the Muslims don't get a mention!

An updated version:

He didn't mention Muslims because he is a sensible guy.

@Moravian Well …. it is a shame that they have become singled out.

@PontifexMarximus I agree but it is the only religion that makes death threats if you criticise it . Mr Bean aint no fool.

1

The poll results are not suprising.

1

I honestly think that ALL religions should be open to criticism BUT not the people per se.
Criticize the belief when and where ever possible, but only the belief simply because the believers, imho, are, in most cases, the poor duped fools ( snowflakes) and know not what they are doing.
As to who, imo, are the biggest of religious snowflakes, I'd have to say that the Morons ( Mormons) would probably rank even or just a touch above the Evangelicals and their ilk BUT the Fundie Muslins would easily rank at Number !.

1

It's OK for a Muslim to say "all apostates should be killed" but not OK for someone to say "kill all Muslims"??? The first is about hate and the second about violence, I guess.

Grecio Level 7 July 21, 2019

Wow, nice thought. I never considered that.

1

t1nick (below) probably has the answer. It's OK to speak hatefully but not OK for speech that inspires violence.

Grecio Level 7 July 21, 2019
1

I voted and I see all votes at this point are yes, including mine. I am not going to go out of my way to confront someone about their choice, none of my business. If however someone confronts me, I will be more than happy to share my thoughts about how idiotic their superstitious beliefs are.

1

I voted yes, because I don't think criticizing religion should be mandated by government. That doesn't mean that I think it is ok to do, just for the sake of being an asshole. I think that in a discussion, to disagree with religion of any kind, it should be ok to express your opinion. That does not mean it is ok to to be rude, dismissive, or nasty to a religious person, just because they are religious. Of course, that doesn't always seem to apply to religious people commenting on atheists.

Is it OK to print in a magazine a caricature of your God? People got killed for that. Muslims will put people they hate on a fatwa list. Like poets and stuff. Muslims claim Islamaphobia but people are really scared of them because they will kill you.

@Grecio I realize that there are radical Muslims out there, but, I have a ton of Muslim friends who are moderate to liberal, and they are not out to kill me. They are aware that I am atheist/pagan, but religion or lack of is not a factor in our friendship. I know several radical Christian evangelists who are very militant about it, and I would not be a bit surprised if they would kill me. Almost everyone else I know who are Christian are also moderate or liberal, and religion is not an issue with them either. I really don't like to paint all Muslims as violent, when they are mostly like me, except for the religion that they follow. I suppose that a caricature of the god of whatever religion you follow, might be offensive, but I don't think that most normal people would kill you over it.

@Wisewoman3 I think Islam, in general, is badly in need of reform. There are some Muslims trying to get that done, but of course, the task is difficult. Like many items, a few ruin it for the most.

0

My, great comments without no attacks on the other for expressing their opinion. Looks like their is a lot of intelligence on this subject. Just finished watching a documentary on Netflix titled, The Family. It centers on the power that religion imposes on politicians to bow to their views through their organization and via the National Prayer Breakfast.

Trod Level 5 Aug 12, 2019
0

I will generally avoid criticizing or ridiculing the religious beliefs of family or friends when in their presence or when communicating with them. I may possibly make a rational criticism of this or that particular aspect of their belief though.

But I also would be against the idea of never, ever making fun of anyone's beliefs or religion. If a person is going to advocate many of the things that Christian dogmas teach, then one is making oneself a fair target of at least a certain degree of ridicule. I don't think we should support the idea of squelching all such ridicule or crfiticism.

0

I have a personal rule for "poking fun" .... Off limits are things that are not choice (hair pattern, number of eyes, skin color, disabilities, ancestry heritage, national origin ....) .... Questionable are hard to control choices ( weight, accent, number of languages .... ) ... Fair game is anything that is clearly a choice (religion, politics, style, hair color, tattoos, piercings, nose rings, bumper stickers, .... ).

That does describe my idea of "fair" pretty well, but it does not ensure popularity.

Ive totally felt that way for most of my life. I mistakenly mentioned once that it was ok to make fun of Mormons but not black people. The Mormon girl sitting with us got really upset and everyone defended her. So I totally get what you’re saying about that policy not ensuring popularity.

0

Islam is not a Race or one ethnic group.

So criticism of any thing which you do not believe or poses as some sort threat to your way of life, your culture is to be criticized with prejudice, for they are criticizing and subjecting your culture to Evangelistic threats!

0

You know, I look up school statistics a lot. Every statistic has a chart for race. Why is that? It has race, poverty level, and number of special needs students. Those must be the greatest factors that affect learning, I guess. There is a little bit about how safe a school is. I think that has to do with reporting how many altercations (fist fights) that the school has, along with successful drug busts. The percent of autistic students in Georgia (USA) is 10%. Does that number seem high? It's 18% in my district. Is something in our water?

Grecio Level 7 July 21, 2019

No just don’t make koolaid out of it.

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