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Watching former FBI and Security Specialist on MSNBC says we don't have the tools or the security to stop domestic terrorism,. Frank Figliuzzi This is downright scary! What do you think?

sassygirl3869 9 Aug 3

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10

It sometimes amazes me that some do not see the rise of Trumpism, BREXIT, the resurgence of right wing nationalism in Europe, and other similar events, for being what it is: the most successful counter-intelligence operation mounted since WW2, by Vlad Putin, to undermine the West, NATO, the western liberal-democratic alliances and democracies, in pursuit of 21Century oligarchic authoritarianism. Of course, exposing the US to external and internal threats by undermining security systems is part of that. And worst of all, the enablers of this are parties on the political Right/far Right, the same parties, or fellow-travellers, who banged the drum against "lefties" and "liberals" and "commies" and "socialists" in past decades, and kept themselves in power through such fear. And now this. As a student of history I am flabbergasted.

With you all the way on that one David!

Well said.

Counter intelligence is about protecting ones own secrets from being discovered...
It's defensive, not offensive. Perhaps you are using the wrong term?

On top of that, pining this all on one individual is beyond ridiculous. There are so many more actors at play here than just one. It may be convenient to put all the blame on one person, but I guarantee that these kinds of things would continue regardless of what happens to any of our leaders. This isn't to say he played no role, just that the beast is a system and has no "head".

@Happy_Killbot Obviously it refers to the regime around Putin and those who support him. Of course, it is true that a virus takes hold when the immune system is weak. In the US that refers to a corrupt political party system, an electoral system that is corrupt, antiquated and anarchic, and exploited by a judicial system all the way up to Supreme Court that allows and strengths electoral malpractice. In that sense, the attack by Putin and co has succeeded by exploiting the US's own weaknesses, its systemic vulnerabilities, that would not have happened had something like a democratic process been put in place and defended. That's the point of Comrade Putin's approach: he identifies and exploits weaknesses. In the US, it's the political weaknesses and the rise of an economic underclass. In the UK feeding the resentment against the EU, though the UK's problems are far deeper. In Europe it's migration and nationalism. Putin has single-mindedly set about to address what he sees as the "injustice' of the fall of the Soviet Union and the "gloating" by the West. He is doing well, sadly. It is the bigger picture that should be seen here.

@David1955 That's not how viruses work, they will take hold regardless of how strong your immune system is because in order to gain immunity to a specific virus you have to first have a significant infection to trigger an immune response. Bad analogy aside,

Have you considered the possibility that these things were inevitable due to wider effects that were outside the immediate control of any one individual? For example, Europe is the only continent to have never been completely conquered by a European power. The number of different interests across the EU is so vast that it doesn't really seem like such a federation should ever be stable.

What evidence do you have that brexit was caused by Putin and his cronies?

I would also like to challenge your assumption that democracies can not be manipulated. Just read some of the comments from this thread, or even better go read the manifesto supposedly written by the shooter for whom this thread was written. People are willing to totally give up there own freedoms for safety. Is it possible that these ideas are being propagated by special interest groups? After all, that is supposedly why Trump got elected.

It's the bigger picture that I'm trying to see, but unfortunately we all live in a pixel.

9

I agree. We do not.
This is the new reality.
Well, not so "new".
The moment the Assault Weapons Ban was allowed to expire, we were fucked.

They're calling today's shooting a "hate crime" now.
Fucking DUH.

Let's all say it together, "Our thoughts and prayers are with them." There. Now we've done everything possible in response.

@Sgt_Spanky Don't be too descriptive, "sending thoughts and prayers"

@Sgt_Spanky

7

They have both the tools and the money: they lack the political will power to deal with causal issues.

This call for more resources is standard fare, part of the play book, after an incident. You see it every single time.

6

I believe we have allowed an effort to squelch investigation of domestic terrorism, veiled in First Amendment protections, to hamstring the effort to stop violent white people from committing murder.

5

Yes, it's scary. We need to educate our people in order to stop white supremacy, neo-Confederacy, KKK, NRA and other hate groups. We also need to repeal the 2nd Amendment. (It is outdated. We non longer need armed citizens to form militias.) And we need to get firearms out of the hands of everyone but the police and the military.

5

The safest place one can go is a police state. They watch everybody's ass so carefully, you don't need to worry about going to the bad side of town at 3 a.m.

If they get those kind of tools in America, I don't want to live here.

No. The safest place to live is where people respect each other's diversity and strengths, are watchful for hatred and threats of violence, and work together to protect their communities. Yours is a false, extreme logic, and doesn't bear up under rational scrutiny.

@skye724 The murder rate of the police state city of Havana (4.7 to 100,00) is less than half of land of the free Houston (11.7 to 100,00). While you're up, come back with the murder rates of the world's largest police state (China) to the US.

Offer me some examples of murder rates from police states and tell me again how my logic "doesn't bear up under rational scrutiny."

@WonderWartHog99 The problem with these numbers is that they are collected by governing agencies and do not consider murder by the state, because it isn't really murder. For example, North Korea has a 0% unemployment rate.

Want to go there to get a job?

Police states may have significantly less citizen - citizen violence, but what of state - citizen violence? I would rather not end up in a gulag.

@Happy_Killbot . . . . and do not consider murder by the state, because it isn't really murder.

Murder, of course, is killing that isn't endorsed by the state. Otherwise war would be called mass murder.

Of course if you're living in a communist state, they'll assign you a job if you want it or not but that wasn't my point. The one thing I heard from tourists to totalitarianism states, unlike the local funky town, is how safe they feel after the sun go down.

@WonderWartHog99 so when a police officer beats someone to death it's okay then? Even if they were inocent?

My point is that murder rate is not entirely relevant to safety because it doesn't take account for other factors. It would be like trying to argue that a particular city was healthier based only on tracking he number of hospital visits. On the surface these things seem like they should correlate, but maybe the local culture is one of hypochondriacs who go to the doctor at the first cough, and so inflate the nubers.

If you visit North Korea you have to stay in a hotel on an island and you can not leave at night. They take you through the nicest parts of town, and only show specific venues.

@Happy_Killbot >so when a police officer beats someone to death it's okay then?

A police officer does not have the approval of the state to beat someone to death. Therefore, according to the state it's not okay. Police shooting a person is more likely not to go to court. Have you ever heard of my universal theory of life in the states? We is crazy we is.

>My point is that murder rate is not entirely relevant to safety because it doesn't take account for other factors.

I picked the murder rate because it's the most extreme act of violence people commit. Other factors like purse snatching, assault with or without battery can drag this on for decades. Let's keep this discussion to one easily understood single factor without a galaxy of different factors or we'll never completely finish reviewing the topic for two forevers.

> They [North Korean "handlers"] take you through the nicest parts of town, and only show specific venues.

That has nothing to do with violence. Has a lot to do with state propaganda. NK doesn't want visitors to the state to have free and open discussion with random strangers. NK citizens are terrified not to repeat state propaganda to tourists. Everyone you'll meet in NK will be very polite. As for letting tourist go where they want, talk to who they want, not so much.

In any case it's NK least likely country to be murdered by civilians because the state has everyone under an oppressive thumb. You're more likely to get shot in South Chicago than Pyongyang.

@WonderWartHog99 In the US in 2019, 480 people have been shot and killed by police.

[killedbypolice.net]

in the US in 2019, 219 people have been shot and killed by civilians.

[gunviolencearchive.org]

You are more than twice as likely to be killed by a cop than by an active shooter. and almost none of those resulted in prosecution for the police officers who pulled the trigger, meaning that it is state approved!

That one factor isn't easily understood, and to think that it is suggests you know nothing about it.

[en.wikipedia.org]

I have an idea, lets just station a military guard on every street corner and shoot anyone with the audacity to leave their homes. "We did it guys! 0% murder rate"

Edit: I have reviewed some of the data and I think the reason you and so many others believe that more police = more safety is because of the relativity of the numbers, due to a statistical anomaly. Consider this: write down a string of 10 random 2 or 3 digit numbers, making sure that each number you chose is higher than the last. Now open a book to any page. write down the page number below your first randomly chosen number, then repeat for the second and so on. you will notice that as your numbers get higher, you will have page numbers less than the ones you choose. You might therefore conclude that picking a higher number means you will get a lower page number, but this is obviously wrong. That second link has an infographic that shows no correlation between violent crime rate and police killings, meaning that the above experiment is basically what is happening. There is no connection between the two whatsoever, and the data proves it.

@Happy_Killbot > In the US . . . .

It doesn't matter. I was talking about homicides in other countries vs the US. You're rambling on about guns and US police.

A person can kill another without a gun.

@WonderWartHog99 The US also has the highest incarceration rate of any industrialized nation.

My point is there is no correlation between the number of police and the number of homicides, because the cops don't stop people who are about to commit homicides, they arrest people who already have.

In fact, some people argue that our prison system is to blame for the increase in violent crime because it makes it impossible for people to return to a stable life after they were in jail.

@Happy_Killbot >The US also has the highest incarceration rate of any industrialized nation.

Still wandering off topic?

Police states have the lowest murder rates than the US. Maybe NK keeps their tourists locked up at night?

@WonderWartHog99 I think this is perfectly on topic, because it shows how there is no correlation between the number of cops and crime rates on account of the US is a police state.

@Happy_Killbot A police state is not about police. It's about a dictatorship kept in power by the military. No politics allowed unless it supports the dictator.

@WonderWartHog99 so... the US then?

@Happy_Killbot We're an imperialistic kleptocratic oligarchy, a phrase never heard in my neighborhood. Big esoteric words make their ears bleed as opposed to this group, who keep their knuckles off the ground.

The US runs on the same same system that got Zaphod Beeblebrox elected president of the universe: hide the people who own the show with the inept.

Now aren't you ashamed you asked?

@WonderWartHog99 I don't know why I would be ashamed about that, except that I am unaware of the other 4 people who know about it.

@Happy_Killbot I used to argue politics with my late drinking buddy, Clyde D. Wonderfog (real first name) in public. Guilty bystanders would over hear us and stop everything when they heard the words "imperialistic" and "oligarchy."

Clyde was a straight ticket Republican.

5

How much is muricas defence budget ......

5

9 more killed in Dayton, Ohio last night.
Where’s all the good guys with their guns.

Youtube suggested a 1 minute clip on the Ohio shooting this morning, and a significant number of the comments on it were, "This is a Deep State conspiracy", and, "This is suspicious in an election year," and, "This is a ploy to take our guns away," etc.

Half the country has gone insane.

@kodimerlyn out shooting rabbits, or innocent victims or each other.

@kodimerlyn, @greyeyed123 well, that would be a great strategy. Let’s make the country a unique tourist attraction. Theme Park - Massacred At Walmart.

Take part in a real life shooting incident and maybe get yourself killed!

Just after 9-11 there were many people from UK scared to fly to America. I’m not the scaredy type so I flew there in the October. Great! About 50 of us on the plane. I wouldn’t dream of going anywhere near the USA now. Even law enforcement is shooting the public let alone the nutters with their legal automatic weapons.

@Geoffrey51 I just looked at another youtube clip on the Ohio shooting, and ALL the popular comments were how this was coordinated, a Deep State thing, a government ploy, a staged election year hoax...and the media's fault for reporting on it because that is the only reason crazy people go on shooting sprees. (I note the reasons these people list are not only mostly to extremely wrong, but many are mutually exclusive of each other. It's like saying the earth isn't round because it's a flat square, it's a flat circle, the round earth is a hoax, and it's round because the media keeps reporting it that way.)

@greyeyed123 Uhhh! Perhaps if it were a plot they might blow something up and blame it on the Puerto Ricans or vegetarians or people that watch The Bold and The Beautiful.

What about one mentally ill person is inspired by another mentally ill person!

I despair!

@Geoffrey51 I’m completely with you: I have spent a lot of time in the US (including just before and after 9/11). I just can’t go there right now. The police are out of control. The anti-terrorism laws can be user o detain anyone. The appalling injustice being meted our through the creation of fake ‘situation’ On the Mexico border ought to shame every decent human being and yet many otherwise sane Americans within rant about ‘illegals‘ without having given the slightest thought to their own situation, who has made these laws, or the profound and disgraceful inhumanity or treating immigrants and refugees the way they are.

Justice is available to the rich only. And the military machine remains a powerful driver for injustice. I want nothing to do with it.

@OwlInASack Totally agree. I am not going back anytime soon. As you say, it looks as though the police are out of control.

>Where’s all the good guys with their guns.

Current reports say armed police on the scene stopped the shooter within 30 seconds. If the shooter wasn't armed a with rapid fire gun, there would have been fewer deaths.

5

AmeriKKKa has a Cancer... it can Not be Ignored.

'merca has always had a cancer. It was built on that cancer.

...just watch’um! Outside the slaughter location, people will say...not my town, don’t know those people, and ‘that’s too bad,’ will be said a lot! It is a collective problem in our society...and that is too much work to fix...bottom line! Before long, nobody will matter!

So long as the Rs have anything to say about it, it will be ignored forever.

4

I agree with Frank, but we can make it more difficult for them by restricting civilian use of firearms to wheel guns and Winchester type rifles and Shotguns. We can stop feeling sorry for Nazi terrorist and call them what they are terrorists. Leave battlefield weapons on the battlefield and stop thinking the 2nd Ammendment gives you the Right to carry anything that you may want when it may be something that you don't need.

4

First thought is that it's not tools, it's will, the will to do the hard things like ban military grade arms to civilians, high capacity magazines, back ground checks. The only thing that will stop this to elect people not tied to big money and that will be hard.

BillF Level 7 Aug 4, 2019
4

True, nor can we stop cyber intrusions. The previous mass murder at Gilroy had all kinds of security, but the shooter only needed one minute to do his harm.

Ban the frigging things, and take them away from current owners.

Try me. You won't find them. And if you think "taking them away" is the answer I've got one hell of a reality check for you

4

What do I think? I think we are in a world of disinformation where we will be told an apple is an orange. The idea is to confuse us, then tear things as we know them down, then rebuild the way that Trumpworld wants. Without leaking info on this latest shooting as a "hate crime" so far, they are at least hinting in that direction. I could predict things here but the best I can say right now is that it is not very likely that the young shooter wanted Medicare for all.

Or that he would be voting for Elizabeth Warren. 🙂

3

Mass shootings in the United States

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

Deadliest mass shootings since 1949.

One study found that nearly one-third of the world's public mass shootings between 1966 and 2012 (90 of 292 incidents) occurred in the United States.[5][6] Using a similar definition, The Washington Post records 163 mass shootings in the United States between 1967 and June 2019.[7]
The United States has had more mass shootings than any other country.

3

Personally I am not surprised more people were involved. Texas is an open carry state which means that some number of people could be walking around the mall or store with a gun when this starts and thus all these people with guns looking for other people with guns means something is going to go wrong.

Kind of spoils the argument about the good guy with the gun taking out the bad guy with the gun.

@Moravian Exacrly what I was thinking.

@Moravian Even though the incident was stopped by good guys with guns? I don’t know, I guess I’m assuming things here. Did the guy just give up and stop on his own?

@indirect76 Obviously he did or he would have been shot by the police and you know well that I and others were referring to armed civilians and not law enforcement officers,

@Moravian I really don’t know. Did he just stop completely without polce presence or did they prompt him to stop?

Anyway, yes I was aware that you were speaking of armed civilians. My point only being that the underlying “good guy with gun” principle can extend to police. I’m not exactly in favor of arming civilians, but I do do see where folks are coming from with that though.

3

I can see where it would be a real challenge! If family can not detect a problem, how would anyone else spot a potential terrorist? Monitoring those far right web sites might be a starting point?

3

We do, but Trump's law enforcement agencies are demoralized by the constant belittling by the treasonous orange turd. The border nutcase could not have done this in NYC which has a Joint Terrorism Task Force and counterintelligence.

It could happen anywhere in America. We are Not Safe Anywhere in America.

@GipsyOfNewSpain yes, it could, but less likely in some areas than others. Don't surrender to fear.

@Mofo1953 We can Not Surrender indeed!!!!

3

A determined terrorist will always have a good chance of being successful in a free and open society. I’m not losing any sleep over it.

It looks as if you have little concern for innocent people (maybe even you one day), who get shot up?

@kodimerlyn @Freedompath How two sentences can be so wildly misinterpreted and extrapolated is a bit beyond me, but I’m not going to lose any sleep over that either.

@indirect76 ...and you never bothered to clear up the misunderstanding, so in your mind you must want it both ways! How is that working for you?

2

Personally I think the problem is not going to be solved until we, each one of us, write our leaders and state for the record what we want to happen. Legislators will not do anything until their jobs are on the line. Until we hold them responsible for doing something that we want. I have a friend who has one of these rifles and he bought it so his wife could protect herself, from intruders, mountain lion. They are both responsible people and I have no fear that they will do anything wrong. They also have a finger on the pulse of the community they live within and will turn in people before they do something to hurt others. If one is going to have a gun, they have to know how to use it, and they have to be able to use it. Also we have to do something about the law when abused people shoot someone while they are sleeping. If your strong, overwhelming husband has you so fearful of your life and the lives of your children then something have to be able to be done. If he is going to kill her if she leaves, and there is proof of this then one should be able to do what is necessary to solve the problem. * know there are two main topics here but yesterday I watched a presentation by Book TV, Rachel Louise Snyder, "No Visible Bruises" & Eve Ensler, "The Apology".

2

If "domestic terrorism" includes lone-wolf gunmen. Then he's correct.

A lone wolf gunman who has a huge online support network, and admires the butchery of the Christchurch murderer, then shares his own hate-filled invective and intention to kill people with his community. Lone wolf my ass, pal.

@skye724
I didn't mean he wasn't influenced by hate groups. And I wasn't really talking about just him. Looking at the recent history of these shootings seems to indicate no real organized group is behind them. At least that seems the consensus of most law enforcement. ........ pal. 👌😎

@bigpawbullets I don't know which law enforcement professionals you are listening to, but the ones handling the El Paso case do not believe this man was a lone wolf. They are actively pursuing domestic terrorism under the federal statute. They are investigating, according to the Texas Attorney General's office, this person's support by online hate groups like 8chan and 4chan, and are under no illusions that this is a "lone wolf" crime. Nobody with a shred of logic to their name sees these as lone actors, including law enforcement. The mythology of the lone wolf is increasingly subject to skepticism, precisely because of the worldwide support network, support and sharing of instructions and methods to precisely target the other. Pal.

@skye724
I think we should agree to disagree on this. I was talking generalities. You're examining this El Paso shooters alleged background. .....Amigo. 🤠

2

I never thought we did, and yes it is scary

2

Well, that’s a good message to send to the rogue nations! Good luck!

1

That would be like, having a hammer for a yellow house but not a hammer for a blue house. Use the same hammer!!!!

1

this partly because the FBI does not allocate/investigate/list motives.

If we don't know why, we can't find solutions. But obviously it is whities and trump and guns.

Even though the data shows the opposite. Gun sales have increased since the mid-nineties.
Shootings per capita have decreased more.

But obviously it is the whities and trump and guns.

Since 911:
about 150 people killed by "whitie supremacists"
about 150 people killed by "islamers"

The actual numbers are higher with the islamers much higher.
Example: the orlando nightclub shooting killed 49, but it was attributed to homo-hatred.
The court records confirm the FBI deliberately downplayed the Islam connection and promoted the homo angle.

But, since the FBI does not investigate motive, this shooting is not described as islamic motivated, until they were forced to agree.

Mostly this was because, as with other such attacks, they don't want to "incite" a rash killing of muslims.

This has been happening in the UK for years. Consequently, nobody knows the motivation for many attacks.

And let's not leave out the 40,000+ people killed, since 911, by black people, that are not considered "hate" crimes, and not considered mass shootings. Yet that is what happened last week in chicago. Again. But that don't fit the MSM narrative of white man bad.

Jacar Level 8 Aug 4, 2019
1

I think if the world stop wanting beaning commercial and only producing things and be kinder to each other we may have a chance my dear sassygirl we are (the world ) is on course to self destruction.

You sound exactly like the El Paso shooter in his manifesto... should we be worried?

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