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Discrimination and human rights. Women, for most of human history, have been held in an inferior position. A major element in any society is religion.
To great detriment to society has been (still is) the creation of sin and atonement by the believers in Abraham.
Isn't it time to give women the right of total equality over their lives? Who has the right to tell a woman or a man how they are supposed to use their mind and body? GROG

GROG 6 Jan 26
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10

A women is most likely to die or be injured by a man that she knows then from anything els.

That is an extraordinary statement. Citation needed.

What you are implying is that most women die or are injured not by cancer, not by heart disease, not by stroke, etc, but by other men. Given that the average age of death in Australia is 82 years, that would imply that very old age women pensioners are being killed by other men.

Extraordinary, but not backed up by statistics. Using the Australian Bureau of Statistics data, only 1.2% of deaths are caused by factors external to the body. But that itself could include injury by any means, such as a car crash. Link at the bottom.

But let's take the 1.2%. Hardly "most likely to die by" is it.

Most victims of violence are men, committed by other men.

[abs.gov.au]

I have read about this. Yes, a women's abuser in most likely to be someone she knows, and obviously she doesn't know enough about him to not be a victim.

@GROG she knows, trust me! However, the absolutely most dangerous time is when she attempts to leave, and she knows this as well!

@Vpatel Did you deliberately choose to misunderstand what Jolanta meant? Yes she could have worded it with less ambiguity but I think the rest of us knew what she was getting at.

@MsDemeanour @Jolanta statement said "A women is most likely to die or be injured by a man that she knows then from anything else". It is quite unambiguous as to what it says. It says that a women is most likely to die or be injured by a man that she knows then from anything else. I don't think I am misreading it. There is no evidence for what is written. If there is, then a citation us needed. As I have taken the ordinary meaning, it is not clear what you want me to read into it which is not written?

@Vpatel oh yeah! you're right. Sorry about that. Looking at her spelling too, I can only think she was recovering from Australia Day festivities! We need her back here right now to clarify. JOLANTAAAAAAAAAAAA! Can you hear meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee???

@MsDemeanour Yes @Jolanta a clarification would be good. I'm not saying that domestic violence is not a problem, but the thrust of your statement unambiguously says, by use of the word "most", that is greater than 50% cause of death. This is unfair, as it puts all men out there as murderers, and detracts from the issue of domestic violence, which occurs in mainly in young to middle age adults and happens to both genders, especially when allowing for any under reporting by men, but does not usually result in death for either gender.

@Vpatel yes you can say men and women are both victims of domestic violence but in my country, statistically one woman dies daily as a result of domestic violence. There are men who die of domestic violence but they are usually in gay relationships. I'm not saying women can't be perpetrators, I know they can, but when it comes to fatalities it is largely a woman's issue.

@MsDemeanour Gender should not come into it.

But if we must, then acknowledge that most violence from men is directed at other men. The relationship type, whether gay, or man v man on the street, is not relevant.

Yes women are recipients from violence from men, but other men are the main victims.

The focus should there lie on stopping domestic violence, full stop, and not reduced to men versus women.

But this is a different concern to the one you raised earlier, which focussed on my response to @Jolanta. I believe my intetretation is what any layperson would have, but you disagreed. We still await clarification on this.

@Vpatel Why shouldn't gender come into it? It is women who are getting killed from domestic violence......NOT men. How is that not a gender issue?

@Vpatel I wouldn't be surprised tho if she doesn't want to engage with you.

@MsDemeanour It is not me who wanted to engage Jolanta further. It is you that said would be good for @Jolanta to clarify, and I agreed.

You said that Jolanta may not want to engage with me.

This is a forum for rational discussion by skeptics. This includes criticism. Just like you are critising my thoughts, I too am critical of yours and Jolanta's.

If Jolanta is hurt by me asking a simple question as to what she meant by her remarks, other than its ordinary meaning, then she is not being open to skeptical enquiry.

But that is fine. I don't care, each to their own. It is you that keeps responding.

To answer your latest point, it is not a gender issue, as I have already reiterated, the largest recipients of violence if any sort is men, perpetuated by other men.

@MsDemeanour It may be worth reiterating the top objectives stated by this website. These are below.

So if you profess that I alter my interpretation of @Jolanta remarks, other than its ordinary meaning, in the absence of any supporting evidence that directly supports her remarks, and that that now she does not want to engage with me as a result, then this is not following the principles of this site:

  1. Be open-minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence.
  2. Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true.
  3. The scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world.

As I initially responded to @Jolanta, and she has not responded since, and since it is you that has more of an issue with my inquiry than @Jolanta, I will no longer be responding to you.

@Vpatel Good. You're not a very pleasant chap. Maybe you should work on your people skills if you're looking for a partner.

@AnneWimsey Self awareness! This something parents need to teach their children; to understand what is going on around them and to understand that everyone has their own agenda. Thanks for commenting.

@MsDemeanour : I am afraid, MsDemeanor, in this exchange you have come off as a rather unpleasant person while @Vpatel has remained calm and polite throughout this interchange. He has supplied facts while you have only provided triggered vitriol.

@johan17 Thanks very much for your kind support. Also welcome to the site and I hope you get as much value from the site as me 🙂

@johan17 thank you for your contribution

9

Many ways of life and older religions are matriarchal (Pagans, etc). Western religions are particularly egregious toward women, though. I honestly wish people would stop trying to apply a sense of morality to certain things such as contraceptives, abortion, gay marriage, etc. None of those things impact other actual people (such as murder or theft does), and should therefore not be subject to some sort of law. It's honestly absurd that in 2020 we even have to talk about this type of thing, especially when it impacts legislation.

The most egregious and long lasting discrimination is the sex industry. Powered by women but controlled by men.

The abortion situation is especially bad how lawmakers have tried to restrict rights. Like any woman chooses to have an abortion for fun. Gimme a break. But that's how the Religious Right thinks.

Reproductive Rights are Human Rights

9

I have always had a tough time competing with men. They get the job. They charge the higher rates. Many are alpha males. Not all. I have given up on the equality thing. It won't happen in my lifetime. Trump made it even less likely that it would happen.

Trump has screwed up so many things. Yes you are correct

LuAnn, the times they are a changing, and faster than we realize. A lot of old white headed/bald men are not with it, and will be replaced. There are a lot of good things to look forward to. GROG

9

You are correct. Regligion is often used to "keep women in their place", and it a moral travesty.

All religions are always used to keep women suppressed.

@Spinliesel not all religions

@Gwendolyn2018 I don't think we should be minimising the oppression of women by religion by mentioning an outlier. How many pagans world wide? a million?

@Gwendolyn2018, @AmmaRE007 the religions that DON'T oppress women are negligible.

9

It seems much of the gains made in relation to women’s rights has, in the span of 3 years, been negated. It is not lost to me that the majority of the legislators mandating their religious beliefs into laws, have been old Caucasian men. One law under consideration is to require all physicians treating ectopic pregnancies re-implant the zygote into the uterus (a medical impossibility) or face murder charges; absolute absurd superstition. [amp.theguardian.com]

I just posted somewhere else yesterday: I want the civil rights that old white men have in this country.

Hear hear.

6

Amen! I agree!

6

Nobody has that right, and to claim they do is a form of control. Men in particular do not have a right over use of the mind and body of women. Biblical men thought so because a woman was property. After all, it was the woman who made the man sin. (Yes, I did bad things and it is your fault.) This is why women who wear provocative clothing have caused their rape. It is also why ignorant men around me claim I should hate my ex because she decided to leave and live somewhere else. For the record, I avoid those with this sort of thinking.

6

Yes indeed, its not just the Abrahamic religions, and not just women, but religion was designed first and foremost to exert power over others through fear. Yes, it is indeed time for everyone to understand that they control their own mind and body. The only challenge is that most believers want to believe. They feel that serving their masters will result in reward or preferential treatment by a creator. Logic and facts are just not that powerful of an argument for people that have been sold a belief through the heart, rather than logic.

I keep hearing that religion was designed (which it wasn't) to give someone piwer iver people (it certainly has had that effect and its codification may have been for that purpose). Religion was the collective human reaction to fear and ignorance -- a way to explain all those nasty natural phenomena. It wasn't designed.

g

Most believers receive these beliefs as children, Well meaning and trusted parents are the indoctrinators. You might say that is getting the "belief through the heart". Santa Claus passes away, but Jesus survives. Thanks for your comment. GROG

@genessa There are a very large number of religions, and indeed many were conjured up to make better sense of the world.

But I would maintain that even then, the process was hijacked to meet somebody's own injective. An example is the concept of heaven and hell.

At some stage, someone made up the story about meeting virgins in heaven if a particular terrorist attack is carried out. Anyone who conjured this could not possibly have done so to better understand the world.

That is just one example, there are many more. Even if the original purpose of religion was to understand, it has certainly then been hijacked to control.

@Vpatel of course it was hijacked. i didn't use that word but i said as much. but the contention in the original post wasn't its hijack but its invention, and with that, among other things, i disagreed.

g

6

"Who has the right to tell a woman or a man how they are supposed to use their mind and body?" .. The conservative, fundamentalist, GOP claims that right.

5

Actually there is lots of evidence that human societies were pretty equal up until the Roman's. Indeed Anglo Saxons had several female leaders and in prehistory women were revered. I have an idea why this changed but it is long past time for women to take their equal place.

5

I think this is one of the reasons I started to question religion, I was brought up in a household where my parents were equals, yes my dad went to work and my mum was at home but you did as she said when she said or she dealt with you none of this wait until your father gets home rubbish. So when the church we went to was saying the opposite of what I saw I wondered. When I was a teenager I wanted to join the navy as my father had served. I could but only in an office I wanted to be on a ship. This was well before women were allowed onboard. At a career evening a recruiter asked me what I would do if a crewman touched me inappropriately, my Dad nearby burst out laughing and said that I might call man overboard if I felt generous, I grinned he knew me so well. The guy looked at me and I then said I would have him charged with misappropriation of naval property. That is if he was ever found. My Dad taught me to change tyres on a car, I rebuilt two cars with him. One night a week each of us (mum dad my brother and myself) would have to make dinner. My mother encouraged me to travel to weird and wonderful places.

Religion is used to control and to hamper people to be submissive little sheep. That is what I learned from church and my watching how my parents brought us up. Even though they believed. I think when we grow out of it we appreciate how much each person is responsible for themselves.

Thanks. Good to hear your story. I think you had smart parents. Talking with children is the key.
How is the weather in Darwin. Sad about all of he fires and deaths. GROG

@GROG The fires are in the southern part so we are free from them. But it is so tragic with all of the animal and human deaths. The stories of the volunteer animal workers are profound to say the least, I can imagine many of the firies and the volunteers in many different capacities will be suffering for years from what they have witnessed. Darwin is stinking hot and humid, we had two days of rain and now the sun is determined to evaporate every last drop of that. Our water reservoir is running at 53% generally by now it would be up to 80% we are just not getting enough rain to fill it up. For the first time in my entire life we might have water restictions in the Top End. We are just not getting the wet seasons we used to.

@Budgie Thanks for your reply. Glad to hear that you are fire free. It is hard to imagine that water would be a problem in the north, the Top End, eh? I lived in Perth for awhile and water was not a problem, but in the countryside it was all terribly dry.

4

I agree. Thank you..

3

I'm not sure that women have been held in an inferior position for "most" of human history. We don't really know too much about the egalitarian societies, and what archaeologists seem to have found pointing to an earth goddess worship of pre-monotheistic society.

But yes, it's definitely time for men and women to have control over their own minds and bodies.

2

We're the choir, preacher. 😉

2

I don't know. After I have consulted with my girlfriend and daughter I will let you know what they tell me what I should think!

2

Just wrong

bobwjr Level 10 Jan 26, 2020
2

In thinking about this issue there are many threads to unravel. What part evolution plays in gender rolls. The transition from multi-God gender inclusive religions to a single male God paternal religion for much of the western world and equating women, (and children), with property. All of these things and many more have lead us to where we are today in the good ole USA.
Women are the majority of the population. Were they be at a place where they could come together and vote as a block on issues that directly effect their gender concerns they would win. But, unfortunately, they do not seem to be able to do that. So until they do or more men become civilized in their recognition of women as independent sentient beings we will continue the two steps forward one, two or three steps back dance.

I don't think men come together and vote as a block on issues that impact their gender either. Though, if you have data that suggests otherwise, feel free to share it. Even if women voted as 1 block, systemic sexism entrenched in institutions would still be a problem. It is not an individual woman issue, it is a systemic issue.

2

you have two premises here but have not connected them. they may well be connected but you have just slapped them together.

also the concepts of sin and atonement were not actually invented by the believers in abraham, by which i assume you mean the jews, and the christian concepts of sin and atonement don't actually resemble the jewish concepts of same. i think the concept of sin and atonement began the first time someone got the bright idea of sacrificing a small animal and/or virgin human and the next day, wow, no more thunderstorm!

g

You could do a re-write since you don't like my style. I was referring to all of the monotheistic, Abrahamic faiths. GROG

@GROG Why is it my responsibility to do your work for you, and what has inaccuracy got to do with style? And if you meant all abrahamic faiths, my correction stands, since, as it does not apply to judaism, "all" is wrong.

g

1

Nobody! But there is a difference b/t the cooperative sharing of labor & domination.

1

This is semi true. For most of "human" existence, men and women have supported each other. Men hunting, cuz that's what they are genetically built for, and women tending to the fire, inventing agriculture,...

Respect all around. This is still the case in the most primitive societies on the planet.

Then religion was invented. And psychopaths were allowed to become the tribal "leaders." Sorta like today.

And now, all the people who used to be interested in learning and science are attempting to out-racist each other, to the detriment of all of us, when we all should be opposing the psychos who are in power of all the organizations, and governments.

Example: there is no gender pay-gap. It is the invention of people who had/have NO understanding of how to understand statistics. Single variable analysis reveals stupidity. Not knowledge.

So, women get the exact same pay as a man if she does the exact same job? And, all doors are open to women so they can advance at the same rate as men? I don't think so. Also, part of the gender pay gap is that women end up in traditionally, lower paying, "female" jobs because they are not given the same opportunities as their male counterparts.

[payscale.com]

@Joanne Yes. a single variable analysis NEVER provide rational results.

Normalize the variables, and yes, women and men are paid about the same.

This gender pay-gap shit has been explained and debunked from the first time it was posited.

Do the research. Learn how statistics work.

1

I think Native American/Canadian societies had it right where societies were either matriarchal, matrilineal or matrifocal.... of course those goddam christian missionaries had to come and undermine that system by refusing to engage with female chiefs and giving power and privileges to men... as well as their genocide. It is interesting to learn about how cultures or societies ran before patriarchal colonialists came and fckd things up.

I'd still rather champion for the completely 100% egalitarian thing.

1

Who has that right? Usually conservative or religious based government parties/bodies worldwide, unfortunately. :/

1

I read that the whole lousy attitude came about when desertification made the world a very savage place to live in (DeMeo, Saharasia). Nowadays, I think of change as an experiment; as in, why not see if gay equality works or not, ditto sex equality etc. I could understand a reluctance if the status quo was more right than wrong but the general unhappiness I perceive in society suggests to me that it's a risk well worth taking.

0

For MOST of human history, like hundreds of thousands of years, men and women were equal in their responsibilities and contributions to the tribes.

0

A woman can her body any way she wants when with me. Total freedom here.

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