You are not getting the message. We all want fairness, we all want justice, healthcare, college and all.... all.... all else. But the problems is not the programs, it is not the message. It is Bernie. You prop is bad. Bernie will not get elected. In American politics, candidates get elected, not programs.

@St-Sinner Your comment is not grounded in reality. He just pointed out to you the massive popularity of his proposals. That's a big part of getting elected. Rational people look at policy rather than playing identity politics. And this candidate does get elected. He got elected Senator he is the front running in the primary, and he just won Iowa.

@RoboGraham The very fact that Bernie lost in 2016, he could not even win in Iowa hands down for the second run in 2020 and still cannot lead the pack of other candidates is all grounded in reality. You are blinded by blind faith that you do not see the reality.

@St-Sinner But he is leading the pack. He has replaced biden as national front runner. And he got the most votes in Iowa. Despite all their tricks, he still won. You have blind faith to the cause of cable news centrism.

@RoboGraham Hello, Bernie lost Iowa to a 38 year nobody after all that hoopla and a second time run with a lot of money? Don't give me that popular vote crap. A loss is a loss. A novice like Buttigieg kicked his ass.

@St-Sinner The Iowa democrats have admitted that there are significant errors in the counting but "“The incorrect math on the Caucus Math Worksheets must not be changed to ensure the integrity of the process,”

No, you ensure the integrity of the process by fixing errors so it is accurate. The rigging in favor of Mayor Pete is so blatant that you would have to be oblivious, which I know you aren't, or willing to accept this anti-democratic process because it hurts the candidate you dislike.

[nytimes.com]

@St-Sinner So you agree with his meassage but not with Bernie personally. Do you think he's too old, rumpled. and Jewish to be President? What's your problem with him as a person?

Agree with all except get off the Democratic Party platform. That is what I am fighting. The Democratic Party is not for socialists, far extreme leftists and fringe elements.

@St-Sinner

Tell Bernie.

I’m not running.

.

Bernie represents my values too. But I'm also a pragmatist and I realize this country doesn't change that fast. The 2016 election taught me that this 2020 election is a contest of progress versus regress. Bernie is influencing the conversation in a good way but his ideas are too radical for this electorate. I will vote for the candidate most likely to deliver baby steps in a progressive direction. Then in 2024 or 2028 we can hopefully win with a candidate who has values which match Bernie's.

@kensmile4u
This country doesn't change that fast because people think it can't and vote to slow it down (otherwise known as conservatism). It changes as fast as people will vote for change.

@skado You are propping up Bernie. Just like you can do that, you can tell others that is the right thing to do.

@St-Sinner
Yes, everybody is free to campaign as they wish, and everybody is free to respond to that campaigning as they wish. Dialogue is good. Sticking to verifiable facts is usually better for everyone in the long run.

@skado Agree. Everybody is free to campaign but no free to hijack a platform that is not theirs. Bernie is not a Democrats. Let him talk the socialism trash as an independent like Ralph Nader and face the same fate.

@St-Sinner
Apparently you are mistaken.

@skado I agree with you that conservatism exists. The unapologetic conservatives are called the Republican party! I'm NPA who is firmly moderate on the political spectrum. So to people on the right I look like a left wing liberal. To people on the left I look like a "conservative" right winger. That's why I call myself a pragmatist because I'm less zealous than the two more extreme sides of the spectrum. I'm not denouncing your opinion. I'm merely sharing mine for your edification.

@skado, @OwlInASack I don't see politics as a binary function regardless of which country we are talking about. I look at it on a spectrum. In the US a clear majority exists in the middle of that spectrum. In our perticular case the charlatan has been exposed to the whole country by the impeachment. I know a lot of people who fell for the dirty tricks in 2016. All of these people feel embarrased that they were bamboozled by the global humanitarian disaster we call the US President. But they fear a knee jerk reaction to the far left. This sentiment is why I think a measured compromise candidate is needed and most likely to be elected.

@kensmile4u
I didn’t feel denounced, and I hope you didn’t. Just discussing ideas.

@skado Thanks my friend. We are good as always...

@OwlInASack I agree there are many types of people on the political spectrum. It is my experience that the centrists draw the ire from both extremes (the left and the right)!

I am dumbfounded about your blind passion. I am telling you that Bernie will not be president. Who cares about what he has in his pockets and back pockets. We do not want him. He will doom the Democratic Party for 30 years to come. It is not the message, it is not the programs, it is the lousy messenger.

Oh ye of little faith....@St-Sinner

Tell me what is wrong about Bernie here. Don't shoot and scoot.

@St-Sinner what I want to explain to you is that I'm really disappointed to see such poor writing on this site. I think those of us in the nonreligious or post religious movement should hold ourselves to a higher standard of intelligence.

@KJThomas Telling too much truth is not good? Pragmatism is not acceptable?

Truth is not pretty. When I point out Trump's outlandish behavior, the far right does not like it. When I point out outlandish candidacy of Bernie with all facts, the far leftists do not like it.

Calling this post "truth" and calling your claims "pragmatism" is too farcical to even address seriously. You just come across like one of those atheist movement people who co-opted the language of skepticism without holding yourself accountable to actually learn something about politics or history or economics. You don't just spout silly nonsense and get a pass because you call it the truth.

@OwlInASack I must confess that I didn't include the UK in the group of Western Democracies, wtf is going on over there. Has every Englishman lost their bloody mind?

Why does not Bernie launch his own party and win? Why hijack the Democratic Party that is not his?

@St-Sinner Why did the Democratic Party allow itself to be hijacked by the corporate elites? Why didn't the corporate elites start their own party and let the Democratic Party continue to stand for the sane majority instead of limiting the choices in each election to Bad or Worse? Sounds to me like Bernie is just moving the Democrats back to where they ought to be in the first place.

@St-Sinner "Why does not Bernie launch his own party and win? Why hijack the Democratic Party that is not his?" is the first on the list of my "Spot the Trump Talking Points."

@AtheistReader It is my point. I want Bernie to be thrown out of the Democratic Party platform. I do not care what Trump says.

@OwlInASack I have more than a few British friends who feel the same way. On the bright side, a bad case of Coronavirus would decimate the base for the Tories, nature takes its course.

Blind faith blinds your thinking and vision.

@St-Sinner I don’t know what blinds you. Fox News? Neo-liberal teevee? Honestly I don’t know where you come up with such a huge cache of lies & misdirection.

@Bobbyzen Bernie supporters are blinded by their vision of the La la land and that Bernie is their messiah.

@St-Sinner you make rash and irrational assumptions based in a bizarre world of upside down and chaotic rhetoric. You know nothing of my beliefs. So I will say only this: I believe in the rights of all beings to live a life of dignity. People and their policies that force us to prove our worthiness have such a wayward, outsized view of their own worth that they feel they must impose their ideas And metrics on others to ensure their superiority. Whether this happens in religion or politics or anywhere in society, this is the bane of human existence. Just accept that we all deserve a life of dignity and leave the rest on the cutting room floor.

@Bobbyzen
Rash and irrational because I oppose Bernie and they are not palatable to your thinking? Every comment is a concern of the Democrats. Bernie is a bad news. He is a bad messenger for the Democrats and progressive movement. Bernie belongs to some extreme party, not the Democratic Party. He is the Extreme Far Left. We do not want him.

@OwlInASack I stand by my observations in the post. Instead of being angry, think through and understand the reality. Bernie will not be president. Buttigieg will not be president. Bloomberg.. as good as he is an I love him... will not be president in this land. I am trying to save you all but you your blind faith has put on a wrong path and I do not like that you are using the Democratic Party banner to do the damage.

@OwlInASack
I am pointing out my observations in Bernie's week candidacy, Am I not? When you strongly disagree with them, you can name it anything you like.

@St-Sinner I've asked you to stop assuming you know who I am or what I believe, except for my stated belief that all people should be treated as if they're lives are worth the same as everyone else's lives. I can't even keep up with the number of places in this post you've continued to hound me and tell me what's right and wrong, what I believe and don't believe it. I'm through here. I'll be deleting future notifications of updates to this thread because I will never stop believing that all people have the unalienable right to health care, among other basic human rights.

Yes, and what Bernie says is not just currently self-serving and expedient. His words have been falling on deaf ears for over thirty years. Also, remember Trump telling us in 2015 he's financing his campaign with his own money. Yeah, right! He never paid for anything with his own money. Even his golfing trips to Maralago cost US nearly $200,000,000 last year! At least Bernie (who doesn't have money) uses grass-roots funding and sticks to his message instead of proffering whatever is currently popular with his doting base. BTW, according to a recent (Washington Post?) pole, He, Biden and Blumberg are currently running at around 70-75% national projection to beat Trump, but that's only if it's a real, honest election, so don't hold your breath.

@fishline79 His words have been falling on deaf ears? He has been advocating for radical political policies for decades and many of those policies are now in the mainstream, thanks in part, to his words. Gay marriage, single payer healthcare, women in leadership positions in government, addressing climate change, legalizing cannabis, women's right to choose... all of these were supported by Bernie before going mainstream. His words are heard and repeated. That's why he is the front runner who just won Iowa.

That's a great point you make about him not having a lot of money and being dependent on grassroots funding. He is the only leader who has not been bought and will be beholden to the people rather than the special interests.

@RoboGraham Bloomberg's money isn't tied to political interest groups either. It's largely his own but some is from grass root donations. Further, he's far more experienced in big population governing and Party unification. Bernie is my 2nd choice, though.

@rainmanjr There are some issues with Bloomberg.

He has so little grassroots support that he did not meet the minimum individual donor requirement to get on the debate stage. He donated some large sums of money to the DNC and wouldn't ya know it, the rules have changed. We call that plutocracy.

He was a republican mayor. He has donated to republican candidates as recently as 2018. He endorsed George Bush for cryin out load.

He oversaw a policy which allowed police to detain people at random. It was of course used for racial profiling and Bloomberg himself has said that they specifically targeted young black and brown males. Even if you set aside the racism, just the fact that he was encouraging a policy that allowed people to be stopped and searched unconstitutionally is an affront to freedom. it is unamerican.

He supported the Iraq war disaster and still maintains that it was the correct decision.

If he is the nominee, the democratic vote will be severely repressed. I cannot vote for this man and there are millions of others who have the same reservations. His only advantage is that he has unlimited money. I see that as a major flaw. I don't want another billionaire holding the highest office in the land.

Yes, plenty of them like Warren, Biden. But sadly nobody will win. They will just lose but Bernie's candidacy will doom the Democratic Party for the next 30 years. We have to avoid the Far Left, Extreme and Fringe Elements in our party. Bernie's madness is not any different from the White Supremacist elements. Far Right or Far Left should have no place in politics and certainly not in the Democratic Party of FDR.

@St-Sinner your a troll..smh

@phoenixone1 Stay in the ring and finish the argument, not call names. I am a democrat and will do everything to expose Bernie who is causing a tremendous damage to the Democratic Party and its cause.

@St-Sinner Boring B8den & the Shrill Shill, bleh......

@St-Sinner so who is your "Super Candidate" there sparky...Who is your Bernie replacement and are you going to torpedo the Democratic Party and vote OTHER than the nominee...thus insuring a Trump Victory...which makes you a Republicab troll.

They convince many. One voter at a time.

In my ex-Facebook community (mostly from Phila. and Europe) it would have been about 98 % Bernie, but I got kicked off of Facebook for posting an innocent photo I sent years ago of friends on a clothing-optional beach. I re-posted the photo (which I had posted with no problem and Facebook sent it to me as a "Memory). F--k Facebook.They immediately shut me out from posting anything. I can't even quit my account or even ask them a question. They are incommunicado. BTW, my liberal group liked the photo. I would post it on Agnostic but I'm afraid they, too would be too prudish, although they are not US based, are they?

@fishline79 Agnostic is total okay with nudity as long as it doesn't show genitalia.

@RoboGraham Thanks, It had one "bumshot".

@fishline79 There are groups on here that are all about nude photos.

@RoboGraham I think it was Mort Saul who said, "Pornography is whatever gives a Judge a hard on."

I am reporting opinions and observations of democrats. It hurts because it blatantly true and ugly. The truth is not pretty. Bernie must be thrown out of the Democratic Party platform.

@MichaelSpinler Right. The hardest part will be beating the corrupt DNC and overcoming the inertia of all the people who think change is impossible.

Bernie, a true populist who has been fighting for the working class all his life, will wipe the floor with Trump.

@MichaelSpinler I hope Bernie wins as he will be easy for Trump to beat. But if someone like Bernie ever did become president it would be a major disaster for America and would likely result in civil war.

@Trajan61 I agree, you should vote for Bennie in the primary so that Trump will have an easy victory.

@RoboGraham I don’t vote in the democrap primary as I’m a registered republican.

@MichaelSpinler Bernie doesn’t stand a chance against Trump.

@Trajan61 If you were truly devoted to the republican cause, you would switch to democrat so you could vote for the weakest candidate in their primary and in doing so, helping your man win in November.

@MichaelSpinler Hillary was supposed to beat Trump as well. Your the one whose mistaken.

@RoboGraham "Bennie"???

@RoboGraham, @Trajan61 becuz what we have now is not?

@AnneWimsey You are a hopeless radical left wing idiot!

@MichaelSpinler Just wait till November and you will find out.

@Trajan61 And you are a hopeless reactionary right wing dimwit. It's a two way street if you want to go there.

It is a mark of low character when a person resorts to name calling rather than engaging in rational debate.

@RoboGraham You liberals make a habit of berating and cursing people who don’t agree with you. Just look at all the hatred shown by the democraps against Trump and his supporters since he was elected. Hell what they are doing is nothing short of trying to overthrow the government by staging a coup!

@Trajan61

Well, I didn't see any name calling in this particular conversation until you started it.

There are people on the left who behave that way and there are people on the right who do it too. I've seen it myself, been called every nasty name in the book by MAGA people.

That coup they tried, well it wasn't anything worse than what the republicans tried on Bill Clinton. I'd say Trump's actions were more egregious. I'd prefer it if both sides would grow up and stop behaving this way.

@RoboGraham Yes I agree what the Republicans did to Bill Clinton was ludicrous. Hell there’s not one man in a thousand who would tell the truth about having an affair. The Democrats have been after Trump since the day he was elected.

@Trajan61 No Doubt

@Trajan61 no, I am a person who has seen, first-hand, a Vibrant middle class, upwardly-mobile, until Reagan & "trickle-down" sucked the life out of everyday people's lives! And the tax rate on the very rich at the time was around 80-90%, and they appeared to be still having a damned luxurious way of life. And everybody expected their wife to stay home, a home that they Owned, and their kids all go to college if that's what they wanted. And now you have both parents working their butts off and No expectations...in less than 40 years! But, noooo, let's continue grinding everybody into the dust...just like France, we can all eat cake..

Trump is on his way to becoming 2nd time president again. Big thanks to Bernie because he has scared away moderates and independents already.

@St-Sinner I seriously doubt those are the reasons.

@OwlInASack Talk about what Bernie is doing. Trump is the enemy. Enemies do what they have to do. With a candidate like Bernie who needs Trump? Bernie has single handedly achieved imploding the party with his outlandish socialism talk. He has scared away independents and moderates in our own party.

Except when it is Bernie. He is not it.

@St-Sinner What are we, 5 year olds?

Don't shoot and scoot like Bernie

@St-Sinner What does that even mean?

@RoboGraham Explain your comment

@St-Sinner I don't understand your statement "Don't shoot and scoot like Bernie"

What do you mean by that?

@RoboGraham
I did not waste too many words in asking the question. I simply Googled it = [en.wikipedia.org]

Spend some time thinking and not salivating after a wrong candidate. You must use the brain.

@St-Sinner I understand what it means in a military sense but I have no idea what you mean when you apply it to Bernie. He is shooting at targets and then quickly moving?

What Owl said.

I agree fully. Bernie must be thrown out immediately. Democratic Party... where are you?

@St-Sinner
Oh look! They're over there... following Bernie.

@skado Wait I see about 5,they look disoriented

@St-Sinner
We see differently.

@OwlInASack I agree, sadly, it’s the nation ..not Bernie. It’s going back some … but I remember once voting ‘third party,’ and for ‘the Greens.’ Though it was a short time before realizing I’d tossed my votes.

No, ‘America’ should be far more, but we’re not What a pathetic tragedy to have so much ..yet lag so far behind the civilized world. I suppose all the previous Idealist presidential contenders from the left have been correct, and not all that extreme. Problem is, the entrenched industrial wealth who oppose them, and the tremendous resources and political framework they’ve crafted to keep themselves in near perpetual power..

It’s like we need someone slick, brilliant, or so wholesome in comparison as to ‘trick’ the nation into taking a few baby steps forward.. We can do it, same-sex marriage was amazing. But we too quickly backslide. So, we’ve no Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, or Jimmy Carter in the lineup … just an angry old man using the only party who’d tolerate him ..in a last-ditch effort to ..show a lonely softcore Socialist can become a US president. Then what?

If Bernie's followers can have bizarre beliefs that Bernie can be elected president, American voters will accept socialism, Bernie with a hard rock musician's hair to the wind is a good looking candidate fit to represent America on the world stage and shake hands with the Queen of England and be the leader of the free world when he has nothing to show for it in his 50 years of political offices.... why can I not just tell some facts of how bad Bernie and his candidacy is?

@St-Sinner nobody is banning your opinions, but just remember that they are just your opinions, and you fail to recognize the many, abundant research that say Bernie is the most electable, the most likable, the most believable, so go ahead and post your erroneous opinion, that the majority of america obviously and factually reject.

@Mofo1953 This is living in a la la land. What I have read and Bernie will crash the Democratic party that will be doomed for at least 20 years and we will not recover before the conservatives have changed this country for ever. I am not ready for that risk.

@St-Sinner read the polls, you seem to be reading the russian propaganda or sound too much like the russian misinformation campaign. Prrhaps you are one of the russian trolls, who knows. Just read the polls where Sanders not only beats trump, but is the most believable, most likeable, most trustful, etc. These are facts. Who the fuck knows what the fuck you're reading.

You have a blind passion and faith in Bernie. I am appealing to your conscience and heart to see the truth and facts on the group. Don't push nation into the ditch, not at least the Democratic Party.

@St-Sinner I don’t think you understand. Trajan61 is a Trump supporter. He knows Trump would beat Bernie hence why he is hoping Bernie wins the nomination.

Heil Hitler!

@fishline79 You liberals seem to have a lot in common with Hitler and Stalin.

@Trajan61 Go back to your History books. You sound like you are imitating the "Projection politics" of Donald . His entire agenda of Pot calling the kettle black and unabashed propaganda attacks and targeted political campaign ads is right out of Hitler's methodology. (also, Stalin, who was no more a Communist than Hitler was).

@fishline79 Hitler and Stalin disarmed the population before killing millions of them. That seems to be the objective of you liberals also. When Stalin took over all the private farms he killed millions from starvation.

@Trajan61 So, who is arguing with that? Do you think I'm lauding Stalin? He was a bigger mass murderer than Hitler.

@fishline79 Your comparison of Trump with Hitler and Stalin is Ludricous.

@Trajan61 I'll remember you said that, and so will you.

By every standard, the economy is the best in the world. If you want to find a flaw in everything, there is a bad in everything. There is a word for this outlook. It is negativity.

@Wangobango3 Economy is about the numbers, not a perception of the critics.

Right you are. It's just an illusion. Like I said, the bubble will explode; everybody salivating over the stock-market numbers. As we have seen before, that doesn't mean shit!

@fishline79 If it does, it the economy cycle. Do you know who the majority of investors is? It is not the Wall Street firms. It is the day to day workers like you and I... the retirement funds of individuals. We all get to choose the funds in our plans and choose to stay cash.

@OwlInASack You are twisting anything you want to defend Bernie.

@St-Sinner May be but they're not the ones who sit behind computer screens and use their money to enrich themselves. Those are the un-regulated people to whom I prefer. Reagan started the ball rolling with his de-regulation of virtually everything and his attempts to destroy the unions.

Please get a better messenger. Bernie is not FDR nor Eisenhower. He is a pony, not a racehorse.

Bless you, an idealist. Sure, you're right, but the point is that the machine that has been conniving since before Reagan to change our system of government has finally hit pay dirt with trump and his "alt right" enablers. He was the 'Messiah" they have been waiting for, and they are not about to let that go.

@St-Sinner I only mentioned Bernie because your post was about him. Politics can be discussed as to what we really need without bringing names to play in the discussion. Am I an idealist? IDK but I discuss what we really need. Any sane person knows it is true. When I here that my ideas will "cost us 93 trillion dollars" I wonder who's ass that figure came out of - theirs or the politician. Other countries are making this work but our current regime goes along with Koch Industries and the crowd that bought into the GOP. We can do better than this and most of us know it.

Bernie supporters will not agree with me. That is what a passion is about. Bernie is not viable at all. He is doomed from the start. That is what the whole discussion is about.

@St-Sinner bernie supporters will not agree with you, but that does not address the fact that i don't agree with you either.

g

@OwlInASack Because facts are harsh. It hurts.

@St-Sinner that must be why you have avoided them here.

g

I have given my own words but your response is typical of the retort by Bernie supporters. Instead of accepting and at least pondering over some of the criticism, you are getting defensive and start blaming the person who points out the flaws.

@St-Sinner you assume that everyone who recognizes lies about bernie is a bernie supporter. your assumption is wrong,.

g

It is not about the Constitution. It is about the system we have been following, the psyche of the voters and how that psyche drives voting. Socialism is a dirty word in America at least now. 25 years from now it will not be. It is important to keep fee on the ground. We will a war based on where we are and what we have at our disposal, not what we would like to have.

@St-Sinner When you look at how Trump has moved the positions of the Republican Party, how can you conclude that what you feel is evident actually is, Bernie's positions are way closer to Democrats that Trump's were to Republicans, in my opinion. Things are not always as they seem.

@Kenoaks The party that calls itself Republican is not what it used to be. The reprobates and sycophants that inhabit that lair would have all been called "Dixicrats" back 30 or 40 years ago. They are a cult, not a political party.

Bernie has caused a tremendous damage to the Democratic Party platform and the cause that will reverberate for decades to come. History will record how Bernie got Trump re-elected in 2020.

@St-Sinner "tremendous damage" yup, that's why every single one of them parrots ideas Bernie had 30 years ago (and how to pay for it all) . Your ignorance is ASStounding!

2. Because the moderate candidates running against him aren't any good. Because much has changed between now and 2016. Most importantly, because the moderate candidate LOST to Trump. Lets try a winning strategy with a popular candidate for a change.

@RoboGraham I think you missed a logical step in your argument. The fact is Bernie lost the primary in 2016. So logically it demonstrated that he had less of a voter base comparably to the moderate candidate. The main reason for primaries is to discover who has the largest voter base to go into the general election. It doesn't matter how emotional and vociferous a voter or a candidate is. Their vote still equals one.

@kensmile4u Okay, setting aside the unfairness he faced in that primary race, sure he lost. That was then. The main reason for the primary is to discover who has the largest voter base right? Let look at things now, he is the front runner who just won Iowa. His name recognition is greater. His movement is larger and stronger. He is shattering individual donor records and pulling in more money than the rest without resorted to taking corporate bribes. He has millions of motivated volunteers constantly advocating for him. He got an endorsement from the most influential podcaster in the world. His rallies are always filled to the brim with cheering crowds.

Biden is falling off a cliff. Mayor Pete has no support from people of color and little support outside of the two early states. Bloomberg is a former republican oligarch who instituted a racist policy which allowed police to unconstitutionally detain people for no reason. Warren is lagging behind. Which of these great moderate candidates can beat Sanders? And more importantly, which of them could beat Trump?

@RoboGraham I applaud your fervor for Bernie but you are still missing some logical steps. First Bernie did not win Iowa. The best he can do is get 13 delegates in a tie with Buttigieg (who is a moderate candidate). That leaves him needing to win 1,977 delegates in the remaining state primaries to win the nomination in the first ballot of the national democratic primary. That will be difficult to do given the fact that Biden has performed better in the aggregate of national polls for over a year. I have attached links to the national democratic primary and the aggregate national polls so you can check the facts. So logically your predictions are premature and uninformed.

[en.wikipedia.org]

[en.wikipedia.org]