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Incest: Immoral or Moral?

I was asked this question today by a theist. If there is no God why is safe sex between brother and sister immoral to an atheist? This guy was smart to add safe sex because it closed off my avenue to argue the health issue. So, I was thinking why is it immoral if it is consensual? I understand we find it gross but is that because of Christian influence?

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paul1967 8 Oct 12
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314 comments (76 - 100)

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5

Society has certain rules be you a religious or not. There are many religions, I'm sure that would welcome the practice of incest. I like to consider myself a liberal, live and let live, blah blah, but I also work in family law. The cases I have seen in 35 years with incest somehow end up to be more one-sided. Again, with the male convincing the female the it's ok. In fact look at all these people on this website that agree with me. I'm sorry but I disagree. If the only person you can find to form a loving sexual relationship with is in your immediate family, you might want to seek counseling.

This! Am I the only one who finds it troubling that the men on this thread are the ones arguing for incest over and over? I don't care if this is an academic exercise. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SAFE SEX! There is no way accidents would not happen in the absence of the incest taboo. Period.

It's kind of sick that people keep digging up this thread and trying to justify incest using PC words like consent and SCC and RACK. The taboo is older than any religion because it leads to birth defects. Too many birth defects lead to extinction. It's almost as if the men arguing incest is moral don't understand that babies happen no matter what. Even with birth control. Even with botched sterilization. That's enough reason not to practice incest!

1

I think that the general aversion to incest goes back well before Christianity, so it's not just based on a religious taboo. It also seems to be very rare among most higher animals, certainly the primates, although there are exceptions, and sexual curiosity (I.e. exploratory, rather than penetrative sex) often occurs in animal family groups.
When a female animal comes into heat, and emits pheromones, it seems that generally other siblings in the group are not attracted by those pheromones, so there's a biological restriction against it.
One of the main human objections to it is that we generally have a different sort of relationship with close relatives to the sort of relationship that leads to a 'normal' sexual attraction.
That's why the cases where siblings have been raised apart and then happen to meet, not knowing that they are related, and fall in love and have sex, are so interesting, and so hard to condemn. It basically goes back to my point that the relationship you have with the person that you know is your brother or sister, and that you were raised with, is not the sort of relationship; that usually leads to sex.
But, with all the caveats and qualifications that have been mentioned by the poster and others (safe, consensual, adult, etc), then there's no a priori reason why it should be wrong.

It seems that, by the time of Moses, the human genetic code had become polluted enough that close intermarriage was no longer safe. So, God commanded against sexual relations with siblings, half-siblings, parents, and aunts/uncles (Genesis 2:24 seems to indicate that marriage and sexual relations between parents and children were never allowed by God).

2

How did Cain and Abel, the only two offspring of Adam and Eve, produce children? - Sex with their mother? Or if Adam and Eve did have other female children who are not mentioned, they would have been full sisters of Cain and Abel. Enuff said!

How many children did Adam and Eve have? The Bible does not give us a specific number. Adam and Eve had Cain (Genesis 4:1), Abel (Genesis 4:2), Seth (Genesis 4:25), and many other sons and daughters (Genesis 5:4). With likely hundreds of years of child-bearing capability, Adam and Eve likely had 50+ children in their lifetime.

2

I am going to say immoral because there is no such thing as 100% Safe Sex, they are still choosing to take the risk and have that slim and very rare chance of creating a child between them.

What about brother/brother or sister/sister incest? No chance of procreation there?

1

There is no such thing as morality. It's only all about suicidal ethics and whatever state society happens to be in. Currently, I think, anything beyond a first cousin is allowed to be married in the US, so technically incest is legal between 2nd cousins etc. Back in the heyday of middle ages, you can only imagine what interesting relationship dynamics existed. Morality and immorality suppose the existence of a set of universal rules regarding behavior, and I think we all agree that's basically bullshit.

Situational ethics, not suicidal... can't edit.

2

Wealthy and powerful families used to intermarry with their own family members . This often led to health problems for the children they produced , Is it moral to intentionally and with forethought create geniticly sick children ?

Yes...there's a reason why aristocrats have weak chins.

2

Morality is mobile. What may be immoral for us today, may not have been in the past or in the future.
For now, for me it's immoral.

Really want is meant is by your sense of your morality is it moral, immoral or neither.

2

Ewwe wwww

LMFAO

1

Why would you want to traumatize and ruin a persons life.

Slightly flimsy argument man do that all the time.

1

There is an inhibition in humans and other mammals to have sex with one whom you have known since infancy. Doesn't have to be related.

i somewhat disagree.my situation was one where we were 4 days apart at birth.cousins.we loved each other from the first time we met.then 62 years later,the situation presented itself to us.there was not a moments hesitation because we knew the love that was there

4

Why is it immoral to a theist is the better question. If god only created one couple then he mandated incest for a time. Even without the creation myth science tells us we’re all related. Everyone in the world is no more than 15th cousins to you. It’s all relative, pun intended but sex with close relatives is discouraged by evolution more so than it is by god. I’m not sure any sex act other than Rape can be seen as universally immoral, but it’s certainly unethical and not recommended for all sorts of reasons that one would hope should be obvious with or without a god. When theists ask stupid questions like this or what prevents us from killing/raping make sure to ask them “oh so gods law is the only reason you haven’t fucked your sister/raped/killed yet? Interesting. I’ve raped and killed and fucked as many sisters as I want. And that number is 0”

If you believe in Genesis, then you know the entire human race was built on incest. When your god only crates two people, one male, one female, and tells them to multiply, well.... Then your god floods the world and only saves one family and only two of every species, well.... So essentially any claimed morality vis a vis incest by anyone believing the Bible is the word of their god is total bullshit! ? Throw that back at them.

1

Moral noun "a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do."
So where does this standard come from?
Our society, for lots of reasons, family structure, inbreeding, and so forth.

Why do so many Atheists FAIL to see these are ALL strawmen arguments from theists?
They believe in a God and a religion with its laws, Morals and precepts.
We do not.
Since they cannot PROVE the God and hence the validity of the Laws and precepts, they instead construct endless strawmen. Evolution, Cosmology and all sorts of moral arguments.

"If there is no God why is safe sex between brother and sister immoral to an atheist?"
No answer to this Proves God, it is a strawman.

It's because it is bad for our genetic diversity pool, and thus has nothing to do with religions. Religions adopted this behavior as part of ancient practices that people practiced. People that practiced incest didn't reproduce as successfully and often as ones with a wider genetic pool.

1

I can't vote because the question isn't based in moraity or lack of it. The answer lies in the history of man as we know it.

I find that statement confusing.

4

It goes against our evolution and instincts. Many animals avoid incest in healthy populations. That is not because of god. Humans just added social taboo.

MsAl Level 8 June 16, 2018

It's not a fact that incest is healthy or unhealthy. It is more common than rare in many species. Not trying to defend the practice, but it seems to be more a morality/religious question than a biological one. There are social and emotional conditioning that impact how we accept behaviors and are impacted by them. The guilt factor can be significant and, by design, behavior controlling.

0

Please tell me, where in the Bible it says it's a sin? I've never heard of such a Bible verse. People are so stupid when it comes to religion. Most practices of the Christian religion, is not even in the Bible. Most of it rationalizations of someone's "interpretation". The fact is, in the Old Testament there are a hand full of direct commandments, and most of them are ignored today.

Leviticus 18-20 has a list of orders from God including not having sex with animals. This is not to say that there are other instances of incest in the bible. But what is the bible if not contrary?

0

If children are produced it is bad for the genetic diversity of the offspring. Look at the Amish. They are descended from a very small gene pool and for the most part only marry other Amish, so they have a very high number of genetic diseases.

I define good as that which advances life and evil as that which impedes life. Incest impedes life and is therefore bad.

If it is safe sex, you're skirting the edge of morality and immorality, but on the right side. Barely.

Now, thinking that you have a right to decide that for others is highly immoral and should not be tolerated.

@ldheinz "I define good as that which advances life and evil as that which impedes life. Incest impedes life and is therefore bad."

I don't disagree with this for the most part, but life is one aspect of existence. Lots of actions would promote life and yet infringe on widely accepted moral truths. It is a good rule of thumb but I would say this is vastly oversimplified.

2

To me it's immoral, because all sex must include complete consent, and I don't think people who are related can give true consent, because of power dynamics, etc.

Cousins

0

Inbreeding magnifies genetic defects.

safe sex means no breeding, in or otherwise.

g

6

Here's a better question; why do Xians have a problem with incest when the bible advocates it prominently? If you believe the bible is the literal word of god then incest is the ONLY explanation for the continued presence of Man after the flood. Since nothing in the bible claims that god repopulated the world with, y'know, magic, then the only other means available would've been an ongoing exchange of genetic material within Noah's family.

Also, who did Adam & Eve's kids marry?

0

It's Nature's Way of keeping us from having two headed 12 toed babies

And yet there are still Siamese twins!

1

Any time close relatives have sex and a pregnancy results, the couple is playing sexual Russian roulette. Recessive genes that can produce disorders exist in almost every person, having accumulated over thousands of years. When close relatives interbreed, the risk of those recessive genes being in both parents and making a disordered child skyrockets. A disordered child is wasted reproductive potential. It is always better for people to find mates outside the family.

"23 and me", and other genetic testing labs, can provide one with information about potential recessive gene issues.

It is funny how technology both creates new ethical issues, yet resolves others.

5

As long as they're two consenting adults it shouldn't be a problem.

Agree somewhat. Prevent pregnancy, otherwise, best to get DNA scans first.

2

When playing around with sex, one may become pair bonded. As a teenager, I did with my steady girlfriend. She moved far away with her family. It was devastating for us.

Now think about the issues when one sibling pair bonds and the other does not. You are living with the tension of unrequited romantic love, with someone you will have a familial relationship with for life. This kind of mismatch will really test your patience or your relationship. So sex play with sibling without having a solid bond is hazardous, if not immoral.

On the other hand, consider a couple that falls in love and plans to delay pregnancy. Or siblings / cousins that fall in love and will have (frequent) "safe" sex. Of course, a single contraceptive is around 80% effective annually. (Always using two might be 96%. That means your odds of pregnancy are about 50% in nine years.)

If the children have 25% odds of having one (or more) active recessive diseases, the relationship is far less important than the suffering non-health of their progeny. So I conditionally call this reproduction immoral.

You don't want the tragedy of a cemented pair bond with someone who is likely to produce a diseased child.

So my advice to young people is to get your genetic testing as soon as you can afford to. Compare your test results before getting all hot and heavy. This is essential for siblings and cousins.

0

Ruins the sister-brother relationship, one that is based on traditional values excluding religious beliefs.

How so?

1

I know in many old cultures it was actually quite common, but due to the health issues it usually lead to collapsing dynasties.

Don’t worry about health, although DNA can be an issue . It never applied to me with my neuclear family no thoughts ever but I had a cousin ... wow. Go luck sorting this out

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