19 28

Something to think about

By Lutherzme8
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19 comments

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0

Oh, man! I love this! We get it the wrong way around so often.

mollygirl Level 5 Feb 11, 2019
0

Precisely!

HippieChick58 Level 9 Feb 11, 2019
1

I would like to point out the pattern:

Speaker: Hey this is slut shaming and hurts those who don't conform to patriarchal norms.
Respondent: No it doesn't. Stop being so sensitive. Shut up.
Speaker: No, really. Here's evidence and proof. Please stop.
Respondent: [doubles down, insults, abuses] I said shut up!

Take note of that behavioral pattern and draw your own conclusions.

ejbman Level 7 Feb 11, 2019

Note the patter.

Speaker: this is how I view intimacy, of which sexual relations is only a part of.

Respondent: SLUT SHAMING BIGOT! How dare you talk down to others in such a disgraceful, disgusting and deplorable manner!

Speaker: I am only sharing how I feel about this subject. This is simply my opinion.

Respondent: Your toxic views hurt people who disagree, so don't say them. I don't want to discuss or explore your meaning, I have already decided for you what your intent is.

You decide for yourself reader, and have a lovely day.

@Lutherzme for me it was really off-putting. I arrive to an amazing quote, which quite eloquently sums up how I personally view intimacy. Then, WHAM, from left field (no pun intended) comes slut shaming. Like woah buddy, hit the breaks. An opinion is not an attack...IT IS AN OPINION!

@Phayon Again, your mischaracterization is based on a vast misunderstanding, as well as an apparent ignorance of why a person might be sensitive to slut-shaming, and what language has been used by religious people to promote sexual oppression throughout the centuries. Please educate yourself. You can start with some of the quotes and research I offered, but I assure you, there is much more.

I hear you say that you are a person who appreciates growing intimacy slowly without sex. More power to you! That's great!

Do you find it necessary to preach to others that they should "forget sex" and "don't count on sex to be the door to intimacy"? What if that is wrong for them? What if it is actually wrong for most people? What if moreover, it reflects centuries of sexual repression by religious authorities, who were all men, and who were repressing women?

It's exhausting and frustrating to have to educate men on these perspectives because there is a built-in willful ignorance, based on the fact that it's so easy to be cishet male, compared to anyone else. God forbid you ever find something "off-putting" to interrupt your enjoyment. The typical cishet male's attitude is "What? Why is everyone so negative? Just focus on the positive! It works for me!" Of course it works for you, all of the advantages line up for you. Meanwhile, other people suffer oppression. Perhaps being a little sensitive to it might help your intimacy in ways more deep and profound than crappy, offensive platitudes about avoiding sexual expression.

@ejbman I will start with an acknowledgement that word choice could have been better on my part. I also feel that the overall temperature has cooled off.

It could be that I am uneducated in the subject. It could be that due to my white, cis gendered orientation I cannot see the harm in the quote. It could be that since I happen to agree with the position it is not a big deal.

I can assure you that all above options have little to do with my perspective regarding the harsh reply the original post received. For me, I can usually look at a quote, position or concept and either agree or disagree. But that is as far as it goes for me. A personal reaction of acceptance or rejection. In doing so I am not stating the opposite is bad, or icky.

I have enough problems day to day. Why it is that I choose not to compound those problems by getting upset at a single quote is beyond me. I take what works and throw the rest away.

I do understand your point regarding the first three words. "Forget about sex" is a hammer-smack of a statement. But sex, in am if itself is a physical activity, like jumping jacks, or moving an eating utensil to your mouth. Intimacy on the other hand pertains to the emotional connection we as humans have between one another in varying degrees.

What I took from the quote, given that the term "make love" was used towards the end is this. You can have sex without intimacy, and intimacy without sex. But having both is pretty cool.

@Phayon I disagree that sex is a physical activity. In fact, so do you. As you pointed out in your last sentence, you can have sex without intimacy, but that doesn't make it the essential quality. I think it also is a very narrow view of sex to think of it as cishet penetration, for instance. People often have sex without ever touching and it can be wonderfully intimate. On the other side of things, people can develop emotional intimacy through the avenue of sexual touch in a way that they never could any other way.

Have you ever heard of the 5 Love Languages? One of the them in physical touch. That doesn't necessarily mean sex, but it also doesn't mean not sex. I've met many people who cannot experience intimacy without physical touch and sex. Why? For some, they were raised in abusive households where words and gestures did not mean what they seemed to say, for instance. Since sexuality was never a part of their emotional abuse, it is the only "channel" of communication that is "clean" for them, and unambiguous. Do you want to judge those people and tell them to "forget sex" and to not expect intimacy from it? Do you want to deny their reality and gaslight them, telling them their experience is wrong?

I will own that I have a certain degree of sensitive trigger on this subject, but I think I've made clear why that is, and I also think it is reasonable for others to develop a greater sensitivity to it.

@ejbman i'm done. When my view is dishonestly restated to such an extent, it is clear you don't want a discussion. Everyone is wrong and you are right. Keep on white knighting my man.

If you continue to act out like this you will push people away. I am now less interested in what you have said. Your tactics are insulting, brash and dishonest. You ascribe meaning to statements so they fit your narrative. You dismiss my points since they come from a strait white male. Your instinct is to treat others with disrespect because at sometime somewhere you have been disrespected.

Your denial is not my fault. Your pain is not my fault. You misinterpreting a statement so far out of context is not my fault. Seriously...stop shaming those for doing what they did not do.

I get passion and fire over a topic, but you take it too far.

And no, you are wrong. I do believe sex is just physical. It doesn't fit neatly into you world view, but tough shit Sherlock. I clearly said what I meant and meant what I said.

Good day, and good luck in life.

@Phayon Touched a nerve then eh, well good. Let it sink in. When you get past all the denial and narcissistic rage, you'll get the point.

For the record, I will repeat that I never said you were wrong for liking what you like. Just don't try to suggest that anyone else is either, and learn to be sensitive to someone who is not stuck in your privileged silo.

Cheers and you're welcome.

1

[en.m.wikipedia.org]
Hmm thats a weird one..
Raised orthodox. Became a Tantra expert, and is good friends Deepak Chopra..
So she is the woo, of the woo woo, and friends with the woo.. lol

hippydog Level 8 Feb 11, 2019
2

I agree. Obviously this is a choice people make and it may not work for everyone. And wow, the comments went down hill fast smile003.gif(

GreatNani Level 8 Feb 11, 2019
0

Copying and sharing. Brilliant. Important.

Robecology Level 8 Feb 11, 2019
3

Ya know, I agree with that in theory, but I actually did things the exact opposite this time and it worked out better. So, not sure if I hold to the theory anymore.

SaucyCheryl Level 8 Feb 11, 2019

Don't bother agreeing. It's another form of slut-shaming. Your own experience is a better guide.

@Lutherzme Thankfully, I don't have to bother insulting you. You're doing a great job of it all by yourself!

@ejbman wow...an interesting point friend. However, have you considered that different perspective is just a different perspective. I happen to agree with the original post AND am against slit shaming...huh, fancy that.

@Phayon Different perspectives are all well and good, but the statement as it stands is actually in alignment with patriarchal values that slut-shame. Such values have been promulgated by religious authorities who have damaged and traumatized generations of people, especially women, especially close friends, family, and clients of mine. See some of my supporting points elsewhere.

If there is a legitimate point to the meme - and I think there's a good argument for it - then it ought to at least disclaim about what it's NOT trying to do, or contextualize to avoid lending fuel to those who would slut-shame.

@Lutherzme And the other way around. Nice intimacy but lousy sex. Neither outcome is sustainable. So for me, there has to be BOTH. I'm not sure the order makes much difference. It seems to me the order is dependent on the circumstances under which the two people meet. I don't believe that sex first makes the experience slutty, or intimacy first makes it virtuous.

@SaucyCheryl true indeed! For me it has to be the order of the quote. Not for some arbitrarily vague reason of "because..." Life experience, for how I interact with the opposite gender, indicates that I cannot connect intimately if physical relations occur too quickly.

But that is for how I work. Disclaimer-what works for one may be detrimental to another. I am not saying my way is better than anothers, only that it works better for me.

@Lutherzme I think it is an unfortunate western cultural construct. It is how most people think, sadly, especially towards women. And as someone who escaped from xtian patriarchy I am sensitive to it. Many people are. I hope that we can someday, as humans, rise above it.

@Lutherzme I have made it my mission in life, that is for damn sure.

0

Either way is good for me. First or last, before, during or after.

OldGoat43 Level 8 Feb 11, 2019
1

I completely disagree. I think this comment is unnecessarily judging and slut-shaming and sex-negative. Some people need sex as a primary form of affection and there is nothing wrong with those needs. I get really angry when people passively-aggressively attack sexuality. There was a long article about women who married men they had sex with on the first date, and why that is perfectly acceptable and valid, and I agree with that perspective over this one any day.

ejbman Level 7 Feb 11, 2019

@Lutherzme If you are unfamiliar with emotional needs then it makes sense why you would respond like an asshole. I stand by my comments. If you need to be a judging prude them you need to hear feedback on it: this sucks and is wrong. Sex can and often is "the door to intimacy" and many people rightly count on it. There is plenty of research to support this position.

@Lutherzme Hey sexist pig, perhaps you should listen to what research says and what feminsts have to say on the subject:

1) A popular journalism article about Israeli research: [mirror.co.uk]

2) Just one of hundreds of articles describing the perspectives of sex-positive feminists, sexologists, and other experts that aren't old white men with a grudge and chip on their shoulder like you, asshole:

[askmen.com]

Gigi Engle, sex and dating writer from Thrillist.com, has a long and complicated history with the topic, but remains convinced that the stigma exists because that’s what we’ve always been taught.

“[It’s] because of slut-shaming. A woman is historically considered the gatekeeper of sex,” says Engle. “It's her job to control the feral sexuality of the rogue male and make him wait to have sex. It is supposed to be a display of a woman's purity. It's total and complete bullshit. People don't recognize that women are actually just as sexually inclined as men. We want to have an orgasm just as badly as he does. Having sex doesn't make us ‘sluts’ or ‘whores,’ it makes us normal, horny people.”

When encountering these tired arguments from out-of-touch people, Engle suggests the best method is to simply turn the other cheek.

“Don't listen to social norms and standards, says Engle. “Every date and intimate connection is different and you shouldn't have to limit yourself.” Dr. Brame proves to be on the same page with the other experts and believes religion is, indeed, the reason such a problem exists.

So, if you want to support the religious prudes who shame people for wanting sex, go right ahead. Don't say I never pointed out your error, fool.

@Lutherzme Please reply and have the last word, proving you are a troll, you failure. If you are incapable of seeing how "forget sex" and "don't count on sex" are sex-negative slut-shaming, then I'm truly sad for anyone who has ever had to live through your 30 seconds of rabbit humping before regretting ever having met you.

2

This is so true, without intimacy outside the bedroom, you will never have in the bedroom.

1

It's great to be friends first and build the rest.

1

Funny how that works. Being friends is only the first step. With time and patience (and a willingness on both parts) something more intimate may (or may not) come.

JackPedigo Level 8 Feb 11, 2019
1

Most of us women know this... Most men don't... It makes it difficult to find a good partner / spouse for both genders.... But there's good news! The younger generation is getting better at it!

Cutiebeauty Level 9 Feb 11, 2019
2

Spot on. Starting with a piece ass is ass-backwards.

TheDoubter Level 8 Feb 11, 2019
2

Absolutely

Our_existence Level 8 Feb 11, 2019
2

Perfect.

MissKathleen Level 9 Feb 11, 2019
3

Absolutely true way I do it

bobwjr Level 8 Feb 11, 2019
3

Totally agree..... smile009.gif

Lavergne Level 7 Feb 11, 2019
4

friends first...

seattlepanda Level 7 Feb 11, 2019
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