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Has your Atheism affected your patriotism?

JazznBlues 8 Oct 23
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1

I wasn't more or less patriotic back before I openly acknowledged my atheism. I do care about the direction of the country as a whole, but I never conflated my existential beliefs with the largely political dimensions related to patriotism.

9

Patriotism the idea that people who live within certain arbitrary borders are more worthy of sympathy compassion and respect, while others who live within other completely arbitrary borders are only worthy of your derision, fear, and even hate.
Yup that’s a keeper
Almost as bad as religion in my book
It has always amazed me how people who I would normally think of as moral and good, can have such contempt for and callousness toward people they have never met, just based on geographic location

Community can be and in fact usually is a good thing, nationalism and patriotism, to me are always more about excluding people instead of including them, this is always a slippery slope, no matter how good the intentions of the instigator

Perfectly stated!
Almost said 'can I get an AMEN'! ????

7

No connection, except that I'm as skeptical of "patriotism" as I am of religious beliefs. As I live in a republic, I'd rather see fewer patriots and more citizens, willing to roll up their sleeves and do the work of staying informed and involved in the affairs of their community, state and nation.

7

Being atheist didn't lessen my patriotism. The hatred currently floating through government certainly has.

7

The way I see it, blind patriotism is as dangerous as blind faith. As a theist, I was taught to be blindly patriotic. Now that I am free to think for myself, I see my country (the USA) more clearly. It has some very real problems, especially under the current presidency. I see myself as a world citizen, and would be just as happy elsewhere.

6

For me, my atheism adds a layer of activism toward drawing attention to the intended secularism of the United States of America. I do champion for the separation of church and state, in my own small ways. I'm going in for early voting this morning and will likely wear my "One Nation, Indivisible" shirt, showing patriotism by voting, while wearing a subtle reminder of the original wording of the Pledge of Allegiance, without the "under God" bit which was added in the fifties.

I'm happy to be American, but that's not saying there can't be improvements in our government and overall reputation in the world. I think it's patriotic to vote and be a participant in our democracy. My atheism, making me a minority of sorts, has caused me to be more vocal when I feel my rights are challenged, whether it be regarding religion, gender equality, or other issues. I feel my first exposure to activism in any small way came from being an atheist, a freethinker rather than a follower.

In a junk shop I once came across a 1930's Girl Scout (I think it was) hymn/choral music book that had the "under God"-less version. Worst 10 bucks I never spent. Been kicking myself ever since.

5

It didn't at all until Trump. Even though I moved to Canada when I was 10, I registered for the draft, identified as an American, and defended America when my Canadian buddies trashed us.

The same level of lemming-like , "ignore the evidence around you", devotion is required to believe in either Don the Con or organized religion. The willful ignorance and hatred of the right will destroy America. I associate the bible belt with Trump, idiocy, and religion. That's the only link between my Atheism and my patriotism.

If the Democrats don't take at least the house, I'm moving to a different country. I'm to old to fight in a civil war which seems to be where we're heading.

It's hard to be patriotic when our president is so un-American. Trashing our allies, including Canada, and cozying up to our enemies. It is so sad to see.

I am so with you on this. I have been looking for jobs in my field outside the US. I will not raise my child here if normalcy is not restored, and I am afraid it will only become more difficult to leave as time goes on. I am committed to ideals, not nations, and the US is letting me down.

@DoctoralZombie If I want to work, my top countries are Canada and New Zealand. If I want to retire, Belize or Honduras. I could retire in Vancouver or Victoria since I don't need to budget $15K/year for healthcare. If Clinton had won, I'd be set where I am assuming she would strengthen the ACA and/or implement Medicare for all. With Trump, I don't know if I'll get my Social Security or Medicare at all.

@shockwaverider I have school to finish here and then the job search will begin with intensity. I have heard good things about New Zealand, too.

@DoctoralZombie New Zealand, at least the part I've seen in and around Auckland, is beautiful and the people are very friendly. I get some preferential treatment in Canada as I went to undergrad and worked full time there, plus my mother took out Canadian Citizenship and lives there.

@shockwaverider I have no ties anywhere but here, but I feel strongly that if things do not get better here soon they will get much worse.

@DoctoralZombie I think you're right. I have connections in Canada, New Zealand, and Australia; as well as Europe and India. I ran a global consulting team for a major software company which helps a lot... I hope you're getting a doctorate in a sought after field.

@shockwaverider Not as in demand as I would like, but certainly with transferable skills. Having my entire CV in the USA is quite detrimental, I am finding.

@DoctoralZombie Seems like your best bet is to get a job at a company that also has offices in Canada and work on getting transferred. Good luck!

@shockwaverider Thanks for the advice.

5

Yes. I embrace altruism and reject jingoism more clearly as time passes. I'm am growing more progressive and humanistic.

5

No but having a brain and the ability to read about basic history and basic human empathy has.

MsAl Level 8 Oct 23, 2018
5

My atheism has not.

My anarchism has.

4

I have always been patriotic about the founding principles of the United States. After becoming an atheist, I have studied the history and philosophy that lead to these principles and my respect for them has grown.

You do realize, I presume, that the ' founding' principles of the U.S.A., i.e. the Constitution, were drafted by men who were OBSESSED with the Ancient War-Mongering Roman Empire and everything it once stood for?

@Triphid Yes, they studied history. Obsessed with the Roman Empire? No, I don't think so.

I have to say, I've been affected the same way. Love of my country has deepened. Why? I suppose I am looking at it rationally and historically, and it has not only given me, I think, a better understanding, but a much deeper respect for the people, and our trials and tribulations. Fuck Perfect.... It is truly much more profound than that

@sfvpool Then, by your response, I can readily assume that you are NOT so conversant with the historically documented records of your ' Founding Fathers' then.
Let us look at a few things here,
Imperator, Latin for Supreme General, High Commander, Commander in Chief, rings a bell with the American President being called ' Commander in Chief' does it not?,
The president being installed as the ' First Man of the Republic,' Primus Res-Publica - First Man of the Roman Republic, his wife, the First Lady - Prima Donna Res - Publica, First Lady of the Republic,
the seeming obsession with using American usages of city names such as Sparta, etc, ALL from historically known Imperially driven ancient Civilizations,
even down to the 'Oath of Allegiance' 'hi-jacked' straight from the Oath taken by ALL Legionaries of the Roman Empire where those Legionaries swore an Oath under the Standard ( Flag) of the Legion to uphold and die for the Legion, the General/s, the Imperator and the Republic.
Please, do all little research on the true and actual history and background of your country and Constitution, it WILL perhaps enlighten you.

@Triphid I am well read on the founding ideas of the United States. Like I stated, they studied history, including the history of the Roman Republic. I wouldn't say that they were obsessed with the Roman Republic by any means, though. They studied every form of government of which they could find information and created the greatest government in history, in my opinion.

4

My patriotism has taken many hits over the years and it is at a low level today. Started when I helped with a war crimes investigation in Chile and found out how America helped in that revolt and then reading more on the subject and finding out all the times we have aided right wing terror on other countries. With the current political climate I'm ready to chuck the whole concept of being a patriot!

BillF Level 7 Oct 24, 2018
4

It changed.
I don't believe in the romantic notion of my country, but I believe that most of my family and friends are there, so protect this place and make it improve will be good for people that I love and for others also.
And the way to make it better is to keep the system working, improve the processes, guarantee as much as possible human rights etc.

And protect the place means inside the borders.

@Pedrohbds But, are not State and National ' Borders' simply just imaginary lines ( to quote a Julian Lennon song) drawn on mere paper maps by men themselves?
When one looks at the planet in a photo taken from space there are NO State or National Borders, just land masses and seas and oceans are there not?

@Triphid without enforced borders, there is no country.

@Triphid you are correct. But we still need administrative borders or administrative authorities from one place will begin conflicts with neighbors.
Now the porosity to people and products of this borders can be discussed.
Migration is a human right...

@twill That may be so, BUT are WE all not members of the one Species, the Human Race, despite colour, etc, and are we not ALL living on the exact same planet, so WHY did mankind decided so suddenly that we needed State and National Borders in the first place, can you answer that?

@Pedrohbds Don't we already have such ' border conflicts' occurring, just as they have done for innumerable centuries before, with monotonous regularity?
In true reality, the only thing any person actually OWNS is the sack of skin, bone, meat and blood that we were born with and even then that ' ownership' is questionable since religions and their ideologies, governments and their laws, etc, lay claim to even that.
What actual ' help' has being governed by religions and Governments truly done for us as a species?
Yes they have brought us ' civilization,' sanitation, roads, housing, etc, etc, BUT also pollution, taxes, duties, etc, etc, and most of ALL social divisiveness.

@Triphid Laws & Jurisdiction come to mind

@twill Laws are made by men to exert control and power over other men are they not?
The laws of Nature are NOT made by men but by the necessities of nature itself and since we ARE a part of nature those laws and the jurisdiction of the Natural World should be paramount, NOT the whims and wills of the few people in power.
I am in no advocating total ANARCHY here but what I am trying to say is that WE ALL need to work together as ONE species for the BENEFIT of ALL species that depend on this planet.

@Triphid Would control & Power be a reason? Yes. So would social order. Do you not think there was not a need for such things historically as populations grew and arguments increased?

How about protection? Compromise? Simple agreements? Share a river. Resources. Water. .......Whether speaking of nations or just tribes, how's that accomplished ? It's like the weather, might be raining across the street but dry here....it has to stop and start somewhere. That's a law of nature. So my land stops at the river. Yours starts at the river. Not a law of nature?

Speaking of tribes.... Tribalism is on the rise.and the idea of ONE species, looks further and further away. I do believe that organized religion is dumping fuel on that fire. And why not? It always has.

@twill No-one truly OWNS the land, the land, as is the sea, the air, the rivers, etc, belongs to the planet, it is a part of the planet and ANY claims upon such are merely FALSE claims dreamed up by humans.

@Triphid I suppose God owns it then? (humor) Well there were no rules written when the Big Bang went off. No inscriptions on rocks from the sun or other stars either. No real owners manual was provided. So, many humans got together and decided that the majority rules. Or, the most powerful rule. Sumpin' like dat. All I really know is that when these rules went into effect, there were several less billion people on the planet.

Everyone wants a little space to call their own. Decide whether to plant peaches or pumpkins

@twill Since there is NO God, the no-one or thing actually OWNS the planet/s, they simply belong to themselves and the life-forms that may or may not inhabit them are merely just caretakers, though in my opinion, we humans are sorely lacking as caretakers.

@Triphid
Ok lets clarify some stuff:
Property is not a natural right, no one has the right to have a military power (state) enforcing that what is written on a piece of paper can be only used by the person with the name in that paper, in nature is quite contrary, you have the right to take whatever you can take and keep whatever you can defend. So property is a USEFUL AND ESSENTIAL right to build the society as we know today.

Second, yes who is in charge matters, if borders fall, how would be the new system? you can say about american democracy, or the many forms of European parliaments, theocratic absolute monarchies, single party republics, etc... See, even among US states there is different methods to choose the administrators, it would be impossible to use a single system in all the world, even discarding local power hungry people.

The modern concept of borders and sovereignty started on the Peace of Westphalia, ending a period of almost 200 years of wars for territory and religion (you can interpret this as culture or government systems on the modern era).

The border conflicts nowadays are infinitely smaller and localized in small problems that in this period.
At that period it was practically savage law: "I rule where my armies can enforce my power".

As I said, you can make borders extremely porous like the border between the states in America, or between municipalities in most of the world, or the countries en Schengen area. But there must be borders to show which rules are applied in each piece of land. And variable set of rules is good, at least localized experiments can be done, improved and replicated.

4

I love my country. That is why I fight to expose its errors in judgment, action, and morality. -- and to see that those mistakes are rectified so that our country will come closer to approaching what it can and should be. "My country, right or wrong" is for destructive fools.

I served in the US Army in Berlin at the height of the Cold War. In other words, I have always been patriotic, both as a believer, and as an atheist in maturity.

4

I love my country. I do not love or trust my government. This is because my current government is trying to drastically change my country.

4

"You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race."
-- George Bernard Shaw [skeptic.ca]

Buxx Level 7 Oct 23, 2018
3

No. 22 years in the Army, 3 in the Sheriff Dept., and 20 in the Postal Service. I don't yell out patriotic crap nor wear military garb (only wanna bees wear that stuff). Just an average citizen minding my own business.

Trod Level 5 Oct 24, 2018
3

I don't use that label. Rather, I refer to myself as a "Rational Evolutionist"

And no.

3

I have never been patriotic mainly because I like to think of equality of opportunity and i abhor the idea of categorising people by colour, or where they were born, what their income is .etc etc. I don't actually care much about my country. I am not 'proud' to be English - It was hardly my choice as far as I know and my atheism is the same its of of no account , just something that applies to others but not me - I rarely think of myself as an atheist; mostly just as an old woman who led/leads an interesting life.

3

I think my patriotism has increased since leaving religion. Understanding and appreciating how the ideals presented by our nations founders in our US Constitution has afforded me the freedom to make decisions about my life which has led to the abandonment of religion. I also no longer take such freedoms for granted since recent events have demonstrated how fragile these guarranteed freedoms are. I also no longer rely on a silent magical partner to take care of these freedoms since it became clear from events in my life that this "magical freind" doesn't actually do a thing (except possibly to be given credit for events it never did or could influence).

3

I have forever been a realist. And, a Worldist.

We are all on only one planet. To be loyal to any other tribe is to be at best merely an hindrance to the survival of us.

I think borders are necessary, but historically arbitrary. And I think they need to be changed to protect the species.

But who decides? We are already deciding. We need to change how we do this.

How can these ideas not be totally "not politically correct?"

3

Nope. I was totally over nationalism by age 15 or so. I've never been especially "patriotic". It always felt unkindly exclusionary and short-sighted to me.

I don't feel like I'm missing anything, really. It's a big world with a lot of people in it, lots of great ideas, mores, and values--and I'm quite happy to engender feelings of kinship with everyone. I think it's the better way to go, actually.

3

I'm not too big on nationalism/patriotism. It's a hive mind mentality and it's antithetical to truth and or critical thinking just like religion. It also promotes segregation and tribalism above truth and critical thinking. I don't think my agnosticism has affected my patriotism. I think those two are both affected by my search for truth and to be able to think critically. Of course I can't completely get rid of my nationalism/patriotism though. We still have to have pride for the good things, and also for defending ourselves.

3

Yes. I now believe that politicians who use religion to justify their political agendas and get the votes of weak minded people should be shot.

3

I'm Portuguese. My level of patriotism is telling the best of my country and culture, use my language with pride but I wouldn't die for my country, I don't think it deserves it. That's me. Other people will have different attitude and there's nothing wrong with that. I know many people will disagree with my attitude but that's part of life.

3

I never was much into patriotism. I find most any kind of "ism" hard to get behind.

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