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We, as a country, need many more women and men who, in their careers in both public service and in the business world, are willing to take principled stands. By that I mean stands that seek ensure that the organization and its leadership are acting in the interests of the public in a manner that is both moral and effective. If we had more such people, we would have much less corruption, less action more in the interests of a narrow group but hurting many more, fewer organizations driving themselves into the ground out of wrong-headed action and leadership.
Four times in m my career I took such principled stands. In all four I acted in the interests of the public in leadership which was simply wrong-headed in three cases, and corrupt in the fourth. In all cases I acted in the interests of the public, seeking better outcomes for people. In all cases, my actions produced better outcomes, but in two cases, at some costs to me. If I had those decisions to make today, I would have acted as I did, no matter what the personal consequences were for me, simply because it was the right thing to do.
Why aren’t more people willing to make principled decisions to ensure that we and our organizations are doing the right things, both morally and functionally?

wordywalt 9 July 25
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0

Like many people, I am conflicted on this topic. On the one hand, see something say something is technically the right thing to do. On the other hand, nobody likes a snitch. Snitches can't be trusted, they'll go out of their way to rat somebody out for potentially their own benefit.

If it means that I have acted in a way which benefits people and organization affected, I don't give a damn if someone calls me a snitch.

Not snitching only protects the wrong-doer.

8

Corporations must act in the best interests of their owners/shareholders. What is needed is a system wherein acting in the best interest of the shareholders is also acting in the best interests of society.
[parncutt.org]

I've seen this work at one corporation and one privately owned business. Both global in size. Both consumer products manufacturers & distributors. But I think it might be not as common as I have thought.

7

I have had to experience the consequences of taking a stand for what was right myself on many occasions! Most were at a cost to me, but I would also do the same thing again if I had it to do over! But, most people know there will be a price to pay, when they step out of the ‘herd’ and will figure out a way to justify the ‘wrong actions ‘ and go with the flow! I wish more people developed stronger courage, because it is liberating personally, in the end!

5

I think it's cowardice.
Most people are simply too weak to do the right thing because they're afraid of possible repercussions.
That, and there's not a lot of money in it.
Doing the right thing doesn't line one's pockets.

4

A major problem in our society is that people have been raised on the idea that "Greed is good." This is strongly compounded by the "philosophy" of Ayn Rand, who was a very miserable person and not worth emulating, but just try convincing her followers of that.

You must have been a personal associate and close friend of Ayn Rand and knew her well to be able to make that statement.

@jlynn37 I don't understand why you tried to insult with your comment. I totally agree with mcgeo52 almost totally. I read almost everything that Rand wrote, and informed myself of her background. She came from a family of Russian oligarchs who lost everything when the Bolshevik,s took power in Russia. As a consequence of that her whole philosophy was (1) greed is good, and (2) all governments are bad.

@wordywalt and that translates to: "a very miserable person and not worth emulating".

@jlynn37, we had mutual friends. They have verified reports I have seen printed elsewhere about her depression and drugs. Hardly what I would consider a role model.

3

I think there are many, if not most employees with such principles. Unfortunately, taking a principled stand often costs the individual taking the stand. When you are working to survive and support your family with no margin for loss of income, such stands are more of a luxury than a necessity.

More worker protections and a stronger "safety net" would enable more such "taking stand" behavior.

Yes. We need laws against non-disclosure agreements and firings for any actions except documentedpoor performance, incompetence, or illegality.

3

Absolutely. Make ethics important again!

3

As long as you have Obstructionist republicans party members hell bent on establishing some sort of conservatives religious families values utopia. Public service has and will become a blatant tool of the wealthy and their corporations instead of benefiting the population of of this country as a whole!

trump and his Obstructionist republicans are wiping out public sector jobs wholesale to accommodate their wealthy owners and their corporations!

I spent my whole career in public service, and I did not kiss anybody's ass to try to advance myself. What I got, I earned.

@wordywalt

Totally agree, seems too many within the system are being excluded more and more!!

trump the Obstructionist republicans are wiping out those who actual support this country and it's Constitution!

3

The principles to stand for are skewed by propaganda thats the problem

It is up to each of us to use our minds to see the distortions in propaganda.

3

Firstly, most people what to do what is right and they do what they can. Everybody circumstances, limitations and resources are different. Hardly people not want to help or contribute to the good in a society.

Secondly, what is a right cause to one, is not right to another. The abortion issue in this country is a good example. Both sides passionately believe they are right.

3

I'm a nursing assistant and I agree that this is lacking. Cronyism is not only for politicians and boys clubs. People don't want to be ostracized by their coworkers or loose their jobs. Me I have a bit of autism. I blow right past those social norms and question things on a daily basis. It's part of the reason I blow through jobs every 6 months to a few years. Being the one that disagrees doesn't work out well.

MsAl Level 8 July 26, 2019

Also I'm pretty sure it is a human condition and not confined to any country.

2

Having experienced working in corrupt exploitive capitalist corporations most of my life. I can say that it is not just personal behavior and decisions that cause this imbalance. When a social, political, and economic system is designed to promote and reward psychopathic self interest what do you expect will happen?

Mindful capitalism which has limits and where such services and businesses are governed for the public good use to be a guiding principle in business. Even the robber barons of the 1920 and 30s realized that if the economic system was not changed those at the top could very well find their heads on a pike someday soon.

As the human population continues to skyrocket and the current social economic system continues to only value a human life for what resources it can provide to the corporate machine. All of those not at the top of the corruption pyramid are expendable. Those with skills or talents will be deemed useful and kept as pets with rewards until they become useless or a better comes along.

Psychopaths do not feel guilt, they do not see others as equals and certainly have no problem using and discarding others without a second thought.

The current economic and corporate system puts the financial benefits and power to make decisions into the hands of a small few. Even as a small business makes strides and may grow into a medium sized business. The power and profits are horded for a select few. Talent, professionals who have invested considerable effort, finances and time. Are hired as a resource, even though what they bring to a company is more than a rote skill liken to chopping wood. No they bring creativity, problem solving, wisdom, and reasoning. These assets help produce the services and products that the company sells.

But as I have personally experienced and so many colleagues I have interviewed have told me their stories. The rich and powerful force such talent into contracts and terms which give away their rights to their work, or worse penalize them (through bankruptcy) should they even dare to leave the company (through non-compet) effectively forcing highly skilled and experienced professionals onto slavery. And if such resources even attempt to defend themselves or sew decent in the workforce. Corporate has no quarms with sending their jobs overseas or bring in H1bs to replace them.

Human Resources exist in companies to protect the interests of the owners, not the well being of the "resources". Every corporate job I have worked at was adversarial from the start, only ignorance and inexperienced fresh out of brainwash college would happily sign away their rights to legalese intended to fuck them once they realised how valuable they really are.

Economics 101 teaches would be psychopaths to pay resources no more then 35% of the total bill rate for a service or good. 35% is being generous many pay considerably less for less years doing the job. And lets not forget the "I can pay 1.25/hr to fourth world resources" gambit.

What it all comes down to is power.

Systematically, every corporate environment I have ever worked in focused on a mindfuck campaign to abuse, threaten, and scapegoat talent for the benefit of management and the corporation owners.

Throughout the last 20 years I and many of my colleagues would not only work their 40 to 80 hours a week. And of course all those resources are locked into a fixed salary of only 40 hours a week pay with no overtime.

But after work they are expected to continue their training, unpaid nor assisted by their employer. Fall behind, become a resource that would not maximize producing profit. Well, you'll be the first to get laid off or fired.

No job training, no mentorship, no peer reviews here.

No power, no voice, no equality.

I know from personal experience I have made several business owners into millionaires. I got a pat on the head and a pink slip for my efforts.

Until there is a system designed to recognize and service the very talent these vampires make their billions from. They scales will never be even let alone equal.

What is needed is an institution that is part continued education, peer mentorship, osters a renaissance in guiding every professional to be an independent professional and is able to run their own business, and yet many may choose to work in teams to go after larger challenges.. as equals.

What is needed is an institution providing job placement and contracts for one or teams of professionals to take on work. Providing legal, administration, accounting, and logistics support to empower talent to do their best work.

The management works "IN SERVICE TO" the talent, not the other way around.

A guild modeled after the trades guilds of centuries past..

A Mighty Guild.

and that is what I have been building for the last four years... won't you join us?

[themightyguild.com]

2

Personally, I can't stand virtue signalling.

What, may I ask, is "Virtue signaling? I had never seen the phrase.

@OwlInASack Really? I heard Joe Rogan use it. Nothing is new and I hate the right, so I call bullshit to your narrative.

@OwlInASack I think you are confused. it may be used as a weapon to combat the left's pandering to weak minded, but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with the right. That's pretty much black and white thinking. I want equality, I want no racism ect., but using it to make yourself look good is pretty much what catholic preists do to take advantage of young children.

@wordywalt

@bigpawbullets I'm all about actions not words.

@bigpawbullets Typical vicious horse manure tactics of the religious right.

@wordywalt
Walt.
Not sure what you're referring to. If it's the definition I posted, it's just copied out of a dictionary. You asked what it meant.

@bigpawbullets I know what you intended and I appreciate it. What I was trying to say is those (virtue signaling) are the tactics of the political and religious right.

Fair enough, but I tend to sympathize to the side that isn't throwing themselves in front of the victim bus, or those that attempt to make themselves virtuous by using words alone. Still does not mean I'm right wing. I pretty much agree with all left things, until that narrative comes along. I just end up wanting to distance myself from it. I don't like the black and white thinking. It's a major problem and we are in a extremely polarized time because of the us or them mentality. A red flag goes up in my mind every time I hear people talk about their virtues. It's an easy path for psychopaths.

@wordywalt
I'd argue that it's used by both political parties and those espousing any religion or philosophy. I think it's more human nature than anything else.

@bigpawbullets Probably used by us with no political affiliation too.

@nastynifty
Yep. I'm sure I've been guilty of it. 🙀

@OwlInASack Why are you so hung up on where it came from? You seem to want a monster to battle. I don't care where any terms come from as long as they have relevance to making my conversation more understandable.

@OwlInASack
We are all legends in our own minds. 😎

@OwlInASack
I think you're being racist.
There, I used a leftist attack to counter. 🍷🍷🙀

@OwlInASack l have no idea what an OP is, and you're two people now?

@OwlInASack
I'd have thought that other than patting himself on the back, his comment was stating the obvious. The country needs more good people. Can't argue with that. My comment was basically, all corporations are not evil. Can we go back to discussing the merits of various wines now? 🙄

2

Because people need education in how to always put the greater good first. Sadly, the current state of affairs is always me, myself and I come first, then those in my personal circle, then friends and family, but never the greater good for the majority of America, that is why we have Trump as POTUS, and there's a risk of hom being re-elected, because "the economy is good. We ate still willing to overlook the racism, ignorance, mysoginy, xenophobia, homphobia, transphobia, even treason because of a few dollars more.

Perhaps our educational system needs to provide direct training in moral judgement.

@wordywalt parents should guide morals, educators can provide civics classes.

2

Insecurity.
We can all do small things on a daily basis that re-inforces our better instinct's.
When a bigger issue arises we wiil then be ready for the challenge.
Insecurity creeps in when we over depend on our job and cannot afford to lose it by standing up.
Our biggest battle is within.
The biggest force external is the CORPORATE culture. Corporations are facist in nature and by design. Taking a moral or principled stand and using it to justify an immoral or questionable act. I see this in my job on a weekly basis.
Profit is put before all, when we change that we will be better for it.
Money is the root of all evil!

As I understand it, our current laws regarding corporations are that their primary responsibility is to make a profit for their shareholders.
Theoretically, could we not change the law to prioritize the public good, and make the profit motive a secondary priority iof incorporating?

@Haemish1 monolithic monopolies, they should be restricted in size and scope. Corporate facists aim to rule and own all that is in their reach. Their reach is global.
Fight back join a Union it is the surest way to rein them in.
Labor friendly laws, we don't need an advantage just a level playing pitch.

@Tooreen
In particular we need to repeal corporate personhood, and incarcerate their CEOs when they break the law.

@Haemish1 this administration is going to start executing inmates. CEO's that break the law and deliberately cause illness , death and destruction of lives should go first. Put those Corporation crooks first.

1

I absolutely agree with you! Doing the right thing is simple. I don't know why the majority of Society has chosen to put itself on the downward spiral of "me first" vs "we" thinking. Selfishness, greed seems to be a huge driving factor these days.

1

Why indeed? I suspect it is because telling truth to power can be stressful. Not everyone is cut out to be a warrior.

1

Here, let me help:

“We, as a country, need many more women and men who, in their careers in both public service and the business world, are willing to take principled stands. By that, I mean stands that seek and ensure that the organization and its leadership are acting in the interests of the public, in a manner that is both moral and effective.

If we had more such people, we would have much less corruption, less action more in the interests of a narrow group, but hurting many more, fewer organizations driving themselves into the ground out of wrong-headed action and leadership.

Four times in my career, I took such principled stands. In all four, I acted in the interests of the public in leadership which was simply wrong-headed in three cases, and corrupt in the fourth. In all cases I acted in the interests of the public, seeking better outcomes for people. In all cases, my actions produced better outcomes, but in two cases, at some cost to me.

If I had those decisions to make today, I would have acted as I did, no matter what the personal consequences were for me, simply because it was the right thing to do.

Why aren’t more people willing to make principled decisions to ensure that we and our organizations are doing the right things, both morally and functionally?”

ok, back - Politically, for decades I’ve watched principled people lead with their hearts and minds. That’s rarely enough.. Extremist media like ‘fox’ or their predecessors on ‘hate radio’ have set the narrative.

Divisions have been crafted, and our nation divided …. right down to our school boards.. When an individual thinker attempts to describe or define a concept not instantly familiar, they’ve already lost. If one side’s message motivates their people more (because it’s come down to ‘sides’ ) they’ll turn out the votes to win.

Seems to me the ‘private or corporate world’ works the same, only with more stealth ...as there may be ‘rights’ an employee has to occasionally make a decision based on it’s impact to society. Though, sooner than later it appears both political and personal behavior that clashes with the norm is weeded out.

I’ve gotten so upset reading (even) around here … people (lacking the guts to run for office) criticizing ‘all politicians,’ labeling them corrupt, dishonest ..everything ugly. When, in a democracy (large or small D), it’s the people who elected trash that are trash. And so are the people who made no effort to participate.

In a private setting, who knows.. Where the desires of Shareholders are paramount, over ..humanity or the world.. how long is a CEO or lesser employee going to last even pointing out the obvious.

Had I not been an Atheist ..with an anxious wife, living in red rural ‘america,’ I may have run for something.. But would describe to those offering encouragement or support that I’d likely be a ‘one term’ office holder - because I would do what I felt was right; popular, expected, or not.

Also, there’s a sick, envious bent to society… Do too good, and the lessers begin resenting you.. But kiss enough ass, and you may last a while. It’s difficult, hard on families, pays poorly, makes serious enemies ..and often false friends. Most just skip it.

Privately, seems a career ender, sad to say 😟

Varn Level 8 July 26, 2019

@OwlInASack I’ve Swedish relatives, and envy their lifestyle … while they envy my resources 🙂 I think it’s our binary political system.. Seems our ‘founding fathers’ were so pissed with ‘the motherland’ they purposely avoided a Parliamentary system. And I think it’s killing us… We can’t build working coalitions, especially with the ‘divide & conquer' strategy of the (ugly) (aggressive) Republicans. And, we’ve such poor participation within even registered voters, only the driven vote … and who knows how bad it’ll get before a larger percentage do.

There’s stuff that could be done, like eliminating these crazy ‘gerrymandered’ districts, ‘vote by mail’ (as has worked so well in my prior home state of Oregon!) … oh shit ..the list of what needs repaired are the very things the Republican majority ‘supreme court’ has ruled on in my lifetime … leaving perhaps another lifetime to repair..

Maybe the only thing I avoid doing ‘around here’ is discouraging people, especially our people ..but frankly (we’re fucked)... Anymore, I look toward the enlightened nations of the world to guide US - beginning with the Scandinavians ~

1

I strongly agree with you across the board. I, too, was in the Middle East and Germany during the worst years of the cold war, gathering information for a gov't agency, as it were.

mischl Level 8 July 26, 2019
1

"We, as a country"....right there, the thing that comes to mind ... "Is not what the country can do for you... JFK"

1

BTW … what is your definition of "morality"? Some people think that abortion is immoral? Others think that capital punishment is immoral? The morality of war is questionable.

What does BTW mean? I call it immoral when a corporation's leadership misrepresents totally what it is trying to do, and when it tries to get away with financial fraud, as well as how it treats people.

1

How do you know that there are not many people acting like you?

I seldom encountered instances like mine.

0

Every business or leader thinks they are right and principled. They just don't believe the same as you. Below that, businesses select for and reward yes-men who will support the company culture. It's not going to change.

That is not true. There have been and continue to be more than a few businesses that knowingly undertake illegal actions,knowingly produce products that hurt people, and deceive customers in many ways, conduct fraud and other totally immoral actions. Still others produce products and services which they use in destructive ways, rather than in ways that truly benefit people. The leadership of too many businesses is knowingly immoral or amoral. Their aim is simply to maximize profits in ways that benefit them and the public be damned. ,

@wordywalt exactly. They think what they are doing is right and good.

@MarkiusMahamius I do not understand how you can say that.

0

Speaking from personal experience, doing the right thing brings little reward. Looking back, if I'd zigged when I zagged, things would be so different. But I have followed my conscience and my heart and i go to sleep quickly at night. I ain't hiding from nobody, nobody's hiding from me! That's the way it's supposed to be! What needs to happen is good people need to rise up against those they know not to be good. Doing the right thing needs to bring more positive attention and financial reward, or else we'll be overrun with a bunch of little Trump's!

Sometimes you win; sometimes you lose. That is the nature of the game. I am proud to have played it, and played it with honor and integrity.

0

What is a principled decision? To one person it is about principles and to another those same 'principles' are misguided and/or evil.Often one needs to set a prime priority. For me it is the preservation of the life support system that supports all life. Often taking a prime principle leaves out lots of other principles and that's where one gets into trouble. My late partners question to her 2nd graders, what is more important people or dirt has spelled out to me that people are secondary to the systems that support them. Try telling this to either conservatives or liberals. In our drive for extreme 'diversity' (cultural) we have created a system where one cannot satisfy even a majority of people. Too many tribes each seeking it's own set of principles. It has become an impossible task.

0

Was James Comey one of those people? I know the President has nicknamed him "Lyin' Comey".

I think that he tried to do what he thought was right. I'll stand by him.

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