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Have you ever thought of religion and communism as not being that different?
(edited)Wow, how many opinions differing. That's good for debate.
That tells me its a valid question.

PondartIncbendog 8 Feb 18
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5

Political ideologies and religions may share many things in common, but that does not make them the same things. A car has an engine and wheels, so does a plane, but that does not make a car a plane, because to be a plane it also needs wings.

A political ideology is not a religion, because to be a religion you also need to have a belief in supernatural authority behind the ideas.

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“Not being that different “.... it’s the degrees of difference that do make them different. Total obedience to a deity, and total obedience to a political system or regime, do seem similar, but in the case of religion the individual can, by use of reason, free themself and leave that religion. Those who live under Communism, or any other totalitarian regime or dictatorship do not have that ability as individuals, necessitating an uprising or mass insurrection to free themselves of it.

But this is about political power. You could not free yourself during the days the church had real hard power... What you described s free thinking versus totalitarianism

@Pedrohbds Are we talking about the present day or history? I assume we are talking in the present not the past.

@Marionville Well, there are countries today where you can't abandon religion.
Some countries apostasy is still a capital crime.
In others you can be denied some political rights if you do not belong to a religion...

But if we are talking about the present world "that matters" (aka western Europe,Us and canada, Australia and new zeland) then yes, this days are gone.

But there are some millions of people still living under authoritarian religious states.

@Pedrohbds I understand that, but the mind control can still be replaced with free thoughts. A theocracy is indeed another form of totalitarianism and I acknowledge that having your mind free of religious dogma but still bound by its rules must be hell, if you’ll pardon the expression, and that is why so many dare not say they don’t believe. Theocracies though, are really quite rare, and most Muslim countries are not actually theocracies, although many do have apostasy laws. However, I believe that strays from the core question, and I still say the differences between religion and totalitarianism are there.

@Marionville i understand.
But comunism does not need the totalitarianism per se, it just happens that is an easy slope from trying to achieve comunism and end in totalitarianism...

Both ways, it is possible to free the mind, but your day to day life will still be controlled by the religion or ideology.

The problem there is the totalitarianism per se, not the religion or or ideology.

3

No.

3

We don't have any good examples of communism to base an informed opinion. So far all attempts we're able to witness have been stuck in the transitory phases, which are somewhat indistinguishable from dictatorships.

Marx intended for the transitory power structures to give in to actual socialism, and then finally to communism, but the power structures that institute and carry out the revolution never seem to want to give up that power once they have it - hence Stalin, hence Castro, hence Ho Chi Minh, hence Mao.

And of course capitalism is scared to death of the whole idea. Wealthy people ruling over the means of production don't want to give up power either.

I guess power corrupts absolutely. 😉

3

Both are authoritarian ways of controlling individuals. Some authority says it knows better than you and tells you what to do, and you're expected to conform and obey under threat of force. In christianity the authority is god(well, an imaginary person in the mind of the believer that they think is real) and church people; in communism it is the government.

3

Nope, because communism is an ideal system, the same as free market capitalism.
They are like "final targets" but anyone that really studies it know that this final target is probably impossible but in thesis we can get always closer to it.
The problem is when people start to harm each other trying to push closer to it.

Religions are the same but with one difference. There is a divine and Unquestionable authority on it.
Lets give a real example. (they might not equivalent or as harmful, but they are there just to see the difference of a "human" system and a "divine" system)

Stalin did horrible things trying to push for a better world.
Even if you believe the final objective was good and the sacrifices were worthy, you can't deny (and be honest at the same time) that he did bad things. So you can question the authority, you can morally judge the leader.

Now religion:
The inquisition burnt witches to clean the world from sin.

We can say that was terrible but from the perspective of the religion they were not needed sacrifices, they were good deeds, even if entire villages were killed due to heresy. This happens because contrary to the "ideological system" where moral still applies, the religions system the moral definition is the divine authority. If god says you should commit a genocide, so to go against it is the bad action, is evil. Because you changed the definition of good and evil from a moral point to a divine will point.
No matter what is the will of the divinity, this will is good.
Helping the poor is not good because it is moral, it is good because god said so. Genocide a village because it is heretic, is not evil because god told you to do it, so it is good by definition.

So on the human system you can justify the action by a "greater good" but you still know that it is evil and in thesis a god leader would try to avoid it. On a religious system, you do it regardless your moral feelings, it is not for the greater good, the action is good by definition.

And see, even for communists they are trying to build a better world, they can be wrong, their actions might result in worse conditions, but the objective is good they just get things wrong (and it also apply to ANCAPs of the ones that believe in absolute free market). In religious systems the improvement of conditions is not a worry. To do the divinity will is.

Of course I am talking about the real system, if someone treats a communist leader as a god or a leader uses communism to pose as "divine ruler" this is a distortion of the system, not the system itself (again any trial will be a distortion because the system is built as an ideal final target, so saying it is a distortion means nothing because it will always be a distortion).

Well argued.

@Fernapple =)

@Fernapple It is scary because following this thinking churches like Westboro Baptist Church are totally correct. They choose what is good or evii based on what god tells. The other churches are just living into cognitive dissonance. To show love for a sinner is making him seeing the mistakes, not making he feels good.

And is not your problem that your hate speech puts them into harm, your god tells you to "don't ham them but spread the word". If spreading the word causes harm then this harm is good as nothing evil can come from following god.

We only consider them evil because we have a "human" moral guide. But once you align your morals totally with god, then you can go full inquisition on people and still thinks you are doing good things.

@Pedrohbds Yes, in some ways I have always thought that it was easier to respect the fundamentalists than the mainstream religious, even less the fringe appologists, since at least the fundamentalists are honest about their beliefs, however mad those beliefs, both to themselves and others. The joke is when you are told by appologists, that 'they' are not true christian/jews/muslims, based on the argument that most c/J/ m, are not like that. As though numbers was a measure of truth. Yes the fundies are indeed the true C/j/m who are at least following the laws they were given as far as they can.

I even find it hard to like the cultural c/j/m who admit to not believing a word of it, but say they are just following the tradition, for the arts and cultural values. Yet even they, have their heads in the sand to a degree, because they ignore the fact that, the arts and culture of a religion, are for many the bait on the hook which lures people in to belief systems and help to make those systems seem respectable. So that even the most fringe appologists, (and there are a few on this site, ) are willfully ignoring the fact that they are to a degree condonning and aiding the lunatic fundamentalists, like the Westboro. And refusing to accept their responsibility for that, is basically the same argument used by the dealer in drugs, who says. "I only sell the suff people want, if they go and overdose on it, thats their problem, nothing to do with me."

2

Acts 2:44-46
44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Doesn't this sound like Communism?

2

No, why? I would say instead the same for capitalism an how all religions have profited immensely, some more than others but all inordinately. Example, the Vatican for just one.

2

Religion, communism (of the Soviet style - NOT to be confused with democratic socialism), trumpism - all systems where individuals are expected to set aside their own thought, their own rationality, and flood themselves with blind, unquestioning devotion to the 'great leader'.

In other words - cults.

Soviet Russia wasn't 'free of religion', even though it was atheist - the communist party became the new church, Stalin etc. became the new god. Still religion, just with different icons.

Then you have Trumpists wearing their 'magic, red hats' and celebrating 'god's chosen president' who screws them, lies to them, allows their rivers to flow with polution, strips their social protections - all while telling them how much he's on their side, and how all their problems are due to those evil immigrants and plotting liberals.

Shit. SO many people are SO thick.

1

Other than Marx using a quote from Acts in his Manifesto? Not so much.

Religion is intended to tell people how to live a spiritual life, and how to relate the life of the mind to life on earth; it's most akin to philosophy.

Communism is an economics doctrine. Capitalism also promises that everyone will live happily ever after if they just follow its principles (have you read The Wealth of Nations or any get-rich-quick book?).

Capitalism is actually more like religion than communism, particularly the Prosperity Gospel type of Christianity- in both cases, if you don't get rich, it's not the system's fault, it's because you did something wrong.

Not to mention, the heavily peddled myth of meritocracy in the US, that tells people if they work hard and have the right skill set they too shall be rich and succeed. When, in fact, it is who you know, the networks you have and the access to resources like money and assets as well as support networks (ie living with parents for free until one's business is established) that make people successful.

1

Yes. Especially when I was raised as a Moron (oops, Mormon). The early Morons lived in communistic communities, everyone being assigned their duty by the church leader.

1

I was always taught that early Christians tried communism according to the book of Acts but it did not work and they abandoned it. I suppose it was put to us that way so believers would continue to be against communism. Keep in mind this was in the days of Sputnik.

1

The similarities are obvious.

SCal Level 7 Feb 19, 2020
1

Communism has its roots in Christianity. I've thought this myself for a long time, but here's a more thorough essay on the subject:

[zingcreed.wordpress.com]

BD66 Level 8 Feb 19, 2020
0

Both ar total system ideologies. That is, they both purport to explain and include everything. They are both fatally flawed in reasoning, if fully accepted, are totalitarian in effect.

0

All ideology can attain the attributes of religion, in that they are all a form of shared beliefs.

0

My friend, I have doubts that you're Communist enough... (trying to sound like
Uncle Josef)

0

Ummm, Communists sure thought so...starting with Stalin trying to stamp out religion using widespread murder, , followed by Russia's brutal suppression for Decades?

0

Interesting comparison. No, I never thought about it, but in thinking it over I see definite similarities:

Surrender of individual freedom and autonomy to higher authority. Value of the group over individuals.

Deification of founders.

Priestly classes with special powers that interpret doctrine and act as an interfaces with the masses.

Esteemed writings thought to be absolutely true and accepted without question.

Hostility toward competing ideas and systems.

0

One is usually the antithesis of the other

bobwjr Level 10 Feb 19, 2020
0

Any idea can become an obsession to the point of being cultlike. Micheal Shermer wrote about Ayn Rand in his book Why People Believe Weird Things. Her concept of objectivism became cult of personality with her followers worshiping her as if she could do no wrong. In my view, religions are only ways people view the world and try to make sense of it - at least, that would be how the started out. For the most part, communism is pretty much the same.

0

There are some similarities. Both top-down attempts to force society into a certain path for its own good. However, because it claims no divinity, communism can be adapted to suit. You can take some parts and use them without adapting to the whole package. For example FDRs new deal. You cannot be a little bit catholic.

@Novelty It was Marx who coined both terms and thought that socialism was a precursor to communism

in ideologies you do evil for the grater good, but you recognize is evil.
in religions if you think you are doing evil is because your moral compass is not aligned with the god, so you are a sinner, because what god says is always good regardless of your limited mortal opinion.

But of course some people can treat ideological leaderships as gods and even clean this "eviil for the greater good", turning it in "good for the greater good". Any totalitarian leadership will try to put an "always right" aura in themselves.

@273kelvin "It was Marx who coined both terms and thought that socialism was a precursor to communism" But has it ever worked out that way in the real world?

@twill No, it has not. Most of the basic problem is the top-down system. Whilst very efficient in some respects, it can be disastrous in others. Marxist ideas of redistribution of wealth are essential to any mixed economy (inc the US) but the blanket application is too liable to personality cult and corruption.

0

I presume that you mean both extreme religion and extreme communism. The former has a God that is not on earth, while the latter has a God that is on earth.

Both subjugate the masses to terror at the whim of an individual. Think of Ferdinand and Isabella, and Pol Pot.

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