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Is the human embryo sacred or something special ?

John Wyatt is Professor of Neonatal Paediatrics and a devout Christian.
Here is what he writes about the human embryo:
"At one level the embryo is just biology, a collection of genetic information and cellular machinery. But at the same time it is a physical sign of an immaterial or spiritual reality, even a sacrament of a hidden covenant of creation. A sign that God is bringing forth a new being, a god-like being, a unique reflection of his character, a being to whom he is locked in covenant commitment. (...)
"we have to recognize that not every embryo is destined to develop into a person. More than 50 per cent of all human embryos fail to implant in the uterus or miscarry at an early stage of pregnancy. Studies indicate that the majority of these embryos have major chromosomal anomalies which are incompatible with life."

How is it possible to make these two perspectives compatible? - On the one hand, the human embryo is something sacred, the beginning of a god-like being, on the other hand more than 50 percent of these "sacred beings" are routinely destroyed before they can develop into a child, killed not by wicked abortion doctors, but by nature itself, or - because after all God himself is responsable for everything that happens in nature - by their Creator.

What I cannot understand is how Professor Wyatt can reconcile sacredness and mass-destruction. I am pretty sure that the vast majority of those "pro-lifers" who fight against abortion do not know that more than half of all human embryos are destroyed naturally, without external interference, but our Professor of course is aware of that fact. To me, this is one of the points where biology and religion collide (at least if you agree with Prof. Wyatt that God's covenant with humans starts with conception, and not at a later stage in the fetal development.)

So what do you think? Is the human embryo sacred or something special (inherently and essentially different from, say, a mouse embryo)? If yes: why? Or do we need a supernatural dimension in order to distinguish human and mouse embryos in a moral sense?

Matias 8 Sep 21
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46 comments

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4

I have many thoughts on this.

  1. The fetus is a parasite until it can survive on its own outside the body.
  2. Those that can't take care of themselves should be protected.
  3. It's just a cluster of cells, no sense of being.
  4. How do we know there's no sense of being?
  5. When can the fetus feel pain?
  6. Abortions should not be used as birth control.
  7. Why can't abortions be used as birth control?
  8. Woman's body, woman's choice.
  9. The father should have a say too.

Ultimately, I am pro choice, but it's a conflicted stance. I base my decisions on science alone, but there's so much we don't know about the human body. To answer the question, no a fetus isn't special. It's biology.

@Deiter Unrelated and you're stirring the pot. The topic at hand is abortion.

@Bobby9 Definition of parasite: Parasitism is a symbiotic relationship between two organisms, wherein the parasite benefits at some expense of the host.

@Bobby9 I've been pregnant and and taking all emotion out of it, I can tell you the fetus is absolutely a parasite. Not all parasites are bad. Plus, you can't assert to know what you can't experience.

2

I love to flip the tables on this topic. Is an embryo any more sacred than a woman's life? Because when abortion is illegal that is exactly what is being communicated.

OwlRN Level 4 Sep 21, 2018

@TheMiddleWay it's not just about that. When abortion is illegal women have and will take matters into their own hands. They have for generations. And in this case, that frequently meant interventions resulting in maternal death. I'm not talking back alley doctors, I'm talking women at home using what they have so they wouldn't have kid #10

Also, this mentality is evident now. Hospitals are so baby focused, they have almost forgetten about Mom. We have an increasing maternal death rate in this country, especially when looking at race.

@OwlRN @TheMiddleWay
I have to say I am tired of men or the religious deciding what is best for women’s health. I have had two abortions because it’s my prerogative to choose not to bring a being into a world to suffer, and it’s my prerogative not to have kids. I don’t have to explain how the pregnancies happened (make an educated guess) nor do I have to justify why I did it. It’s my body and my agency and no one, especially a male, or a religious twonk, has a say in either my sex life or my reproductive rights. Women don’t need a special health reason to justify abortion. They will have an abortion if they don’t want a child and they don’t have to justify that decision to anyone - not even a doctor.

@TheMiddleWay What country do I live in? The country of my residence doesn’t give a man a right or agency regarding my will or my body. There is something very wrong when a committee on women’s heath does not have one female committee member.

[huffingtonpost.com]

People don’t decide for each other - the law is the benchmark on what can and cannot be done legally. Right now abortion is legal and men are sore about it because they do not feel in control. The fact is, whether women decide to have a child or not, is not controllable by men. If we have an “unwanted” child, men are powerless, if we abort legally or illegally, men are powerless. It simply a decision you do not and will not ever have the privilege of making, as you do not carry the child and it’s unconnected to your bodies.
DNA is therefore utterly irrelevant factor to women’s ability to control their body and it’s functions, including whatever is in our uterus. If something is in my uterus, only I get to decide -the male and the embryo itself has no power physically to do anything about the decision.
The only relevance DNA has is whether we like the father or not, and whether we want his genes to continue with ours. The other decisive factor is whether or not we want to be tied for life to the male in question. We may decide he is a risk to the unborn child itself, or is unable to support its life financially.
We get to make these decisions irrespective of the law, what men think, because only the female side has the agency to continue or terminate.
The lack of power men feel in this situation makes them uncomfortable and they struggle over our reproductive rights. It’s an unwinnable struggle.

I could also make mincemeat of your arguments regarding erroneous connections to freedom of speech and power relations, but my thumbs are tired and I have cat puke to clean up.

@kozmic ?

0

What an interesting observation. I can’t speak from an intellectual point of view with this. I don’t believe I could abort a child in uterine because it is a living being who has the right to live. However I would not push this on others. This is central to my beliefs. I recognize the biology and the understanding of divinity in the biology. I suppose it is complicated.

Ingi Level 3 Sep 23, 2018

A child? Is that what women are calling blastocysts nowadays? And what is divine about IVF? Are each of the numerous fertilized eggs, nearly all of which are discarded, considered 'sacred?' These embryos are typically frozen, so is the 'divine spark' likewise 'on ice?' Consider what the future of IVG holds, where women, with or without the assistance of a male donor, will have their eggs harvested and fertilized by sperm-like cells in a laboratory so that they can analyze the candidates for genetic characteristics, freeze the promising ones, and discard the rest. This is already happening in a number of countries. This genie will not return to the bottle. Soon, genetic analyses and engineering will enable the ideal traits to be selected, and unwanted embryos will be discarded by the hundreds of millions.

@pnfullifidian you seem very passionate. I protect my own. That is where my passion lies.

@Ingi Your body, your choice ... and as a man, I don't even think we (males) should have a say in the matter! Peace.

@pnfullifidian my spouse didnt allowme say in having future children. He had himself snipped without my permission. When men stop being assholes about that sort of thing, then we can talk about who has what say over my body. Peace out!

@Ingi Okay, I think I understand. Your spouse is (was?) your partner who went against your wishes, and because of your spouse's behavior, men should stop being assholes before we can have a conversation about who has a say in a woman's right over her body? If it is your position that you have (or should have had) veto power over your husband's reproductive decisions, then it follows that he would hold similar power over yours. But all of this is between the two of you, and should have no direct bearing on the public debate. Just as our partners hold infinitely more significance than our elected representatives, there's a huge difference between the intimate decisions made in the privacy of our homes and laws made in statehouses.

2

We're clearly not opposed to killing our own species. We kill criminals. We kill people we perceive as enemies. We choke up a bit when confronted with the idea of killing innocents. And we have a natural predisposition for protecting children. But we have no leg to stand on if we claim we are unwilling to kill. The point is, we are happy to kill if we feel it is justified. So any so-called sacredness is out.

The question becomes "Is it justifiable?" Whether killing a microscopic blob of cells or killing a 250 lb. blob of cells, it's still killing. The bottom line is that 'deciding when to kill' is a decision adults have to make sometimes, no matter how uncomfortable it might make us. We murder the food we eat. We murder our own kind when we feel they are not fit to live among us. We murder those who are trying to murder us. And a growing contingent of us feel that murder of the unformed is justified in the preservation of the formed... that we should be willing to suffer that discomfort in the service of granting half our species the right to body sovereignty.

It is Nature's way that not all potential life is granted a full lifetime. As responsible adults we must stop passing the buck to gods or selective-sacredness, and shoulder our unpleasant duties. We should never approach them frivolously, but when two values we respect are mutually exclusive, we must try to make responsible choices, rather than pretend we can remain innocent bystanders.

Like there is no God, there is no objective right and wrong. There is only whatever you personally hold to be of value. I don't like killing innocent, potential humans. I like even less assuming that I have some God-given (if not God, then from whom?) right to force a woman to manage her body in some way that suits me. NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

None of us can authentically claim to be "right". We can only claim to have preferences that we are willing to stand by, and I stand by a woman's right to choose.

skado Level 9 Sep 21, 2018

Word.

@Bobby9
That’s right. So what’s the best procedure for resolving issues people disagree on?

0

A human embryo is not sacred since nothing is "sacred", but unique and special it most certainly is, if only in potential.. Though Pro-Choice must be upheld, I do feel society is too quick to dispose of the unwanted.

I am definitely Pro Choice also. I disagree with your "too quick to dispose of" notion. Choosing abortion is a heart wrenching and tragic personal decision. However, It is for many of us a necessary sorrow. Woman are intelligent human beings. Give us some credit and support us in our decisions. We know the nature of what is developing inside of OUR bodies. The "sacredness" (I wish I could think of a better word) of the embryo to each each individual woman is not constant or equal. The percentage of woman who make the decision to terminate an embryo or fetus hastily or uncaringly is miniscual. The country and the world for that matter need recognize women for intelligent and responsible choices we are capable of making.

@OwlInASack We are never in a position to make absolute statements about value, all value statements are necessarily subjective. The best that we can ever hope for is to achieve a general assent.

The value of a human individual is immeasurable regardless of their circumstance. However technically an embryo is not an individual until "birth" or separation from the mother. In the search for moral standards the law seeks to establish when an embryo has the viability to survive detachment.

5

It is very special. Especially when stir fried & served with a nice bordeaux.

Not fava beans and a nice chianti?

@pnfullifidian No mate, that's for dining on Xtian Babies ONLY I'm afraid....LOL.

@Triphid My reference was to Hannibal 'The Cannibal' Lecter in his now-famous Silence of the Lambs line.

1

I think it's special in as much as an acorn is, because of it's potential, which is kind of cool. Some seeds have to be burnt to reproduce of course 😉

@OwlInASack You are right. They could grow up to be Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Trump. We certainly wouldn't want to miss that. As far as l'm concerened if you ain't carrying it, you have no say.

0

What about IVF or IVG? In the not-too-distant future, all human embryos may be conceived in a lab, and a sperm donor won't even be required, as stem cells can be used to manufacture sperm-like cells. A significant number of blastocysts may result from a single egg harvest, which may then be frozen indefinitely. These samples may be genetically screened for diseases and deficiencies, as well as analyzed for gender and other physical attributes, and perhaps even temperament or personality. The designer child is not that far away, and the unwanted blastocysts, sacred or not, will be discarded and destroyed by the millions.
[media.giphy.com]

@Deiter I believe you're right. It's up to the potential parent(s).

0

I’d say a human embryo is both special and sacred.

Thanks for your honest and open opinion, especially in a forum where many of us will disagree. I respect your integrity to be able to state what you believe, even in the face of opposition.

@Livia Thanks. Of course the meaning of the words ‘special’ & ‘sacred’ to me may be take volumes to explain, but at the end of the day I find that they apply to a human embryo. This doesn’t mean I think abortion is wrong. I just think it’s a serious thing and I can at least understand where people against abortion are coming from.

1

Matias, this is very similar to the (very interesting) question you put out the other day on the reconciliation of religion and science. As I said then, many scientists compartmentalize their faith and practical knowledge, as humans are incongruous in thought, deed and emotion on a daily basis. The professor in this case tries to merge the two and finds himself in a logical cul-de-sac. I get what he is saying as conception is an amazing thing. It’s an incredible mathematical chance that you are you, and one spermatozoa among millions penetrated one egg, when human ovulation is a tricky thing. On the other hand it’s such a common occurrence that there are seven billion of us! Human conception is at once as mundane as shitting and as incredible as the Big Bang. In the grander scheme of the world and in a biological sense, a human embryo is not a sacred thing - it is a product of reproduction and is no higher or lower in order in the natural world than a germinating acorn or a mouse embryo. However socially the family unit, fertility and conception have taken on a meaning beyond genetics. Anthropologically insemination and pregnancy can bond kinsmenship and identity of the clan, unite or divide clans, form the basis of social cohesion and peace, claims to territory or war. Pregnancy is imbued with ritual and birth is a right of passage. That is why women’s fertility is controlled by men to this day. That is why to some people believe it is sacred - thousands of years of programming. It’s the key to survival of your group and your genes. It is logical that most of society think an embryo is sacred, and that murder is evil. It’s all tied to primeval survival. Truth be told that both conception and murder are mundane daily occurrences.

Livia Level 6 Sep 23, 2018

@Matias I am honored that you liked my comment! I also like your questions.

2

Thought experiment:

You are visiting a fertility clinic. A fire breaks out on one of the theatres, and is rushing towards the oxygen tanks. When it reaches them, the entire place goes.

You are in a corridor. On one side is a cooler containing 50 frozen embryos, immersed in liquid nitrogen and ready for transport. On the other is a baby, screaming in terror. You have only got time to rescue one, and if you hesitate, everyone dies.

Who do you choose?

The child. Right of the living. The other is only potential.

@Ingi ex-motherfucking-actly.

2

Get your bible out of our vagina and shove it up your ass!

zesty Level 7 Sep 26, 2018

@dan325 🙂

1

People who claim to be scientists are supposed to view things with a sense of reason. These religious scientists make a mockery of their own profession and they make me sick.
We live on a space ship with finite resources. We have stretched those resources to the point of endangering future generations of humans and killed off thousands of species of non-human species. That is immoral. Trying to moralize our extreme, exponential population growth is the height of hypocrisy and arrogance (and extreme fear).
No, nothing about any part of any human is special and tying mumbo jumbo words onto our existence changes nothing.

4

If the joining of a sperm and egg is somehow a sign of a spiritual reality or a sacrament of sorts (however he's defining that), I have to wonder whether he believes the same for chickens and pigs, whose embryonic development is so similar to that of humans, and if not why not. He seems to have no basis for his claim except that he believes in the supernatural. That seems to be justification enough for him, but I need reasons backed by science or strong logic (not theology or metaphysics). I've never heard a sufficient argument to support such spiritual-reality assertions.

Well stated! Humanocentric hubris is behind all of this 'specialness' and 'sacred' nonsense. And when in our evolutionary history was this designation achieved? Were our hominid ancestors endowed with the same 'sacred spark' that we inherited? How many millions of years have we been 'special?'

0

Nothing is sacred.

Carin Level 8 Sep 25, 2018

Or everything is sacred, we are not that special.

0

Abortion rules

0

There is a biblical way of having an abortion. A method that is not only approved by God, it was invented by him. He describes it himself in the book of Numbers (5:11-31). It's all part of God's wondrous Law of Jealousies. God's magical abortion procedure. A priest, some bitter water, and a wife that you think might have been unfaithful. Priceless. So if God has his own abortion procedure, abortion can't be wrong, right?

Yes, but that's in the Old Pesterment.

0

I am told 20% of pregnancies end in miss-carriage. If everything is "part of god's plan" then god must be the universes greatest abortionist! (I know, I'm taking something, but god know what, out of "context"!)

...I thought you had a valid point!

0

Then according to Dr. John Wyatt: Professor of Neonatal Paediatrics, a human embryo is inherently scared due to an innate bond with the Almighty Creator of Time, Space, and Dimension. We are the children of God which makes each and every one of us a special little flower, divine in origin and inherently beautiful.

That's so sweet but I see a problem with that thinking.

His hypothesis hinges entirely on the unprovable existence of an invisible magical being who lives in the sky. So if the Almighty Creator of Time, Space, and Dimension weren't real then Dr. John Wyatt's assertion of the human embryo as sacred is a steaming load that he just made up based on his faith.

But I'll go one better.

Not only are humans not the scared creation of an omnipotent superbeing but there's currently about 8 billion of us covering the planet. Eight billion of ANYTHING is a plague. If there were 8 billion rabbits, or 8 billion koala bears, or 8 billion ring-tailed lemurs, there'd be government programs paying people to kill them in vast numbers.

Dr. John Wyatt: Professor of Neonatal Paediatrics is just another Xian nutjob with an education.

The joke about "pro-lifers" is that they're for the fetus, but as soon as it's a child, screw it, you're on your own. They often despise other's lives, so being just for the fetus is an ego trip to keep women down.

0

In my opinion, it is something special but nothing is scared.
Theist jump through a lot of hoops to justify their beliefs.

0

No life is sacred. It simply exists or is.

0

Professor Wyatt is thinking that we are our bodies, and that is getting him in trouble, off on an irrational course IMO. No human body or any organism is worth much because bodies are manufactured at more than a sufficient rate. Sure, embryos are sacred, but everything is sacred. Human bodies belong to the natural world and are subject to nature’s laws. Every acorn does not become an oak tree—there’s not enough room.

IMO Conscious Awareness desires a river of organisms with which to interact, but the fate of a single organism is of little concern—organisms are temporary by design. They are also nothing but robots, finely made but unaware and without free will, a sense of beauty, or love.

Embryos are under the total control of the manufacturer until such time as conscious awareness takes possession of the product. After that she has no say.

1

The collision arises first with the assumption that a collection of cells is more than that. This would need to be demonstrated. Until that demonstration we should treat it as it is.
I think if you have to introduce a supernatural explanation to your argument you have already lost on a rational level. Is an collection of cells sacred? No. Or you would have to concede that a sperm cell can also be sacred and somehow nobody (that I'm aware of) seems to want to make this argument.
Is an embryo special? Yes, everything is special, so no, nothing is special. What does special even mean?
The moral status of an embryo depends on your morality. For me, moral consideration starts with consciousness. How you want to define that is another rabbit hole you might want to go down, but there is a point where an embryo is definitely not conscious and a point where it is definitely conscious. Somewhere in between is good enough for me, for now.

Dietl Level 7 Sep 21, 2018
1

Is the human embryo sacred or something special ?

NO

1

Not in my opinion, but in the opinion of many others yes.

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