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Fellow agnostics, how do you feel about believers joining?

This is likely contentious, but it needs to be asked. As this is a site "...promoting universal truths and peaceful life without religion" how do you feel about people of faith joining here?

I'm no shrinking violet and I don't need the sort of safe space that so many people believe they do now, but I also don't want to have to engage with people who have been inculcated into some form of unscientific, simple-minded view of the natural world.

I joined in the belief (cough) that this was an exclusive club where I could escape from these folk - but now I find they are joining - with a view to what, I don't know although my hackles are raised.

Not only is this sort of thing wasteful of resources, but if they are here to try to convert or preach at us, that's likely to result in a dissemination to all-out flame wars in a post or two.

I didn't think this was a site to convert people from one way of thinking to another (that sort of thing is nigh-on impossible by the time we're in our 20s anyway.)

I ask because I'm interested what my fellow angostic/athiests think.

I've noted that "theists" tend to butt in to these conversations with their ignorance and that's what I came here to avoid.

I'm getting too old to argue.

Draco 6 Sep 25
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583 comments

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18

I'd prefer to communicate ONLY with agnostics and atheists! If I want to indulge with theists, there are plenty of places online and off for this. IF they are allowed, then it might be a good idea to have them clearly identified as such. I foresee them trying to take over the site, and agnostics and atheists growing frustrated and exiting. I'm too old to argue also, and I'm not trying to convert anyone. I guess the challenge would be how to determine whether they're a theist prior to acceptance, or showing them the door if they won't be respectful.

and what if aetheists aren't respectful?

Trouble is the theists tend to preach only to the converted and do not engage intellectually. Try a different approach??

I think we should have filters when searching for members, as well as filters to hide posts / comments from religious participants. Sorry, I have too many encounters with jeebus folks in real life and social media. If this place gets overrun by simpleton trolls.. It would not be good

different issue. it's deflection, @SamL.

@walklightly what is deflection?

@SamL, it means a "change of direction". with your question you open a whole new can of worms, instead of staying with the issue, which is: do agnostics want to have believers amongst them here?

38

I'm not thrilled about it either. I wonder wtf they're doing here. It's one of the reasons I suggested to admin that we'll need a blocking/reporting system. Unfortunately, even if blocked, that won't keep their inevitable disruptions out of discussions, unless everyone agrees to ignore these folks.

One of the big problems with these folks that I've noticed in real life (among Christians) is that they don't know how to take "no" or "not interested" as an answer. They reject that agnostics and atheists are just as steadfast in their beliefs as they are in their Christian belief.

bingst Level 8 Sep 25, 2017

I concur.

Same.

I would not defend but point out flaws and atrocities in scripture. I am not a Christian! There are many believers and many with doubts and open to an honest discussion on the authenticity of their faith and the Bible. Let them ask, I have answers. Sorry I did not make my self clear.

The religious have a blocking system for turning you away at the pearly gates AND further for condemning you to absolute eternal fire. Why sink to their level?

@Mcflewster I don't mind having conversations with believers. I won't put up with being harrassed by someone who wants to convert me, neither here nor in real life. It's the latter type I was referring to in my comment, and the consensus seems to be that that is the type who would probably join this site.

@bingst Fine but why do you get harassed. Are they winning?

NB this is not a battle but is concerned with our future and how soon we get to where you want to be

I think your right. I have a hunch that a religious person who joins this sight would be pretty sure about his/her position, and probably would be a nuisance.

@KentTorch "many Christians with doubts", I don't think so; that would take a little thought. The ones that do terminate religion, many are very angry that they have been coned so badly; that everything was there in plain site, and for some reason they didn't pay attention to the obvious.

That makes me do a double take. Your choice of vernacular.
As follows "They reject that agnostics and atheists are just as steadfast in their beliefs as they are in their Christian belief."

Like telling me you have a fying car, SAY WHAT?!

Atheism has no beliefs, it is a NON thing. By adopting Atheism one does not gain anything, especially some set of beliefs, they perhaps shed one they did hold, a theistic set.
Agnosticism is addressing an entirely different question, one about esoteric, revealed knowledge of some God orother.

SO how can any Atheist be steadfast in something which has no beliefs to be steadfats in?

Rather, your meaning is you are NOT convinced their religious tales are true and valid, you are NOT sold. By stating that you are just as steadfast in your belief in atheism, you have turned Atheism into another belief system, which is precisely what many fundamentalist sects argue that it is, or want it to be.
Then they can argue against that.

When you do not use such terminology they are truly stuck with the impossible task of trying to prove what they do believe, which cannot be done.
That effort makes them realize (sometimes), that it cannot be done, which makes folks think "Why do I believe this?"

@Leutrelle while I AM sure in my beliefs, I also realize that what I personally believe is not acceptable here and therefore, counter-productive to discuss. What is most interesting to ME for being here is hear from all of you your stories and what unkindness, hypocrisy and inappropriate comments that Christians have hurled at you that have deeply hurt.

In order to build a bridge, I feel I must hear the whole stinkin' truth. After all, I may have said and done the same things without realizing it, and I want to stop doing it, whatever it is.

I do respect the valid misgivings many of you have, however, and realize that centuries of mistrust won't be erased for a long time. If I step on toes, just let me know and you'll have my sincerest apology

Rest assured, I'm also NOT someone trying to write a book, either.I'm only here to listen and learn how to be a little more open-minded, more tolerant, and more sensitive to others. Peace to all on your journeys.

30

In theory I'd be more than fine with engaging in conversation with respectful theists, but I came here to have a place to talk to other unbelievers specifically. Seeing as though it's a specific forum and not an open outlet like facebook or reddit, I'm going to have to say that I'd rather not have believers on here.

I agree.

16

I'm glad you raised the question. I, too, would prefer that theists not join us. They already outnumber us in the outside world; it would be wearisome if they came here in large numbers. We already debate them constantly outside; why do they come in here? I'd suggest as a deterrent that the introductory questionnaire be edited, such that it no longer offers 0% to, say, 25% as a possible response to the question "How certain are you that no gods exist?" That would weed out most devout Christians from entering the site since answering the question without the 0% amounts to denying Christ, which is a big no-no.

True, but most actual Christians would answer honestly because of the degree of condemnation assigned to Peter for his denial of Jesus on the morning after his arrest. Besides it would be fun to catch them out on "bearing false witness," denying Christ, and/or expressing doubts of their own supposedly solid convictions.

I like your idea, there could a limit to theist where there is reports of their troubles of trolling or bashing. They could be banned from site if too many reports. Too many numbers of one group outside of nonbelievers like theist's can get disrupting.

6

I have no objections about anyone joining this group. But it should be listed on the application page what criteria is valid for membership. It is totally up to the discretion of the site administrator. As for me, I do not believe in ANY form of censorship.

12

I just joined the group today and I was reading some of the questions and post and was surprised by the how many believers there ended up being. I was hoping to come here for discussion among fellow non-theists on topics concerning non-theists without having to wade through theist comments. Though I am new so I haven't had "an issue" with them yet, if I continue to use the site regularly I am sure I will at some point.

6

I agree with you 100%

tonia Level 5 Sep 26, 2017
7

I guess I'm not necessarily totally against it, but it does seem to kind of defeat the whole purpose of the site, no?

21

If they are here with an open mind to actually learn something, and have an intelligent discussion, they should be welcomed. If they are here just to be obnoxious, ignorant trolls, they should be banned.

Agree

9

I agree. I came here to avoid the constant nagging of believers I face on other social media. I don't have a problem with arguing, but does it have to be at an agnostic site?

6

I think it would be a good idea if people would behave themselves. Admittedly that's a big whopping improbable if. I enjoy debate, I do it all the time, and as long as it stays civil, it can lead to beneficial conversations. I know how to control my discussions, and I never let them get to the point where it turns from a debate into a fight.

4

I'm okay with it, as long as they keep out the hate. The best thing about this site, for me, is that I can post whatever I like about religion without sending notifications to real life religious friends or family who will respond negatively. The arguments don't really bother me.

That said, we've all been part of agnostic FB groups where routinely these jerks join just to post some hateful, ignorant meme and get out. My tolerance for that has gotten pretty low.

2

Why would they be here except to troll us?

5

I was so excited to join a community where I wouldn't have to be shamed all the time. I mean, maybe it'll convince one to see reason, but I believe they are only here to feed their agenda and I've had about enough.

5

Dont mind it, were here for discussion, though it'll prob bring along alot of trolls too

4

I can't stop someone from joining, if they become unrulely report him or give it back to them....is it prefered they don't join, well sure lol

58

Today is my first day, but the reason I joined was to get away from religious view points and be able to be in a community of people who lean more toward the way I look at things. I get the religious perspective all the time. However, if they are respectful of our beliefs as I am with anyone else’s beliefs then maybe it will help bridge the gap between us all.

Welcome Alliegirl - I think you're echoing what the majority feel - I hope the Admin is watching. 🙂

Hello Alliegirl, That you for mentioning "respectful." I've always had a problem with people who think I should respect their beliefs - even if they are fundamentalists and represent everything I oppose. I don't think the Constitution says I have to respect anything (I haven't read it lately; I may be wrong). I have to TOLERATE their beliefs (as long as they are not truly evil, nazis, etc.). I will not respect beliefs that encompass racial bigotry and supporting a thug like trump.

I don't think the theists who want to join us are searching for truth - wouldn't they be calling themselves "agnostic" if they were? If they have questions, we can refer them to authors who have already anwered their questions - Dawkins, et. al.

@LIB75002 - I would go further : I certainly don't respect their beliefs, or even tolerate them - all I do is acknowledge them. End of.

@Agnostic1 - that's a great word. I'll probably start using it now instead of tolerate. Thank you

We actually need to be up against f2f with religious people all the time in order to refute their arguments and so them a more compassionate less negative way off living without having to preach or argue

Allie, would you "respect" the belief that the world was flat? And we can go on forever in the 'book of lies'. I have no respect for religious fools- or secular ones either.

@TheMiddleWay it's like the bullet kills people- but the gun has nothing to do with it. People should disrespect Trump's ideas- but Trump has nothing to do with the blather that comes out of his mouth. Is there more of your ideas? Ya, people in stone houses should not throw glasses.

@Diogenes I wouldn’t respect the belief, but I would try to be respectful to the person no matter how much of a “fool” I may think they are. You have you’re way of being, I have mine.

@Alliegirl Sometimes things get confusing on here; I was responding to the person above. If a person is leading a decent life- it is absolutely none of my business whether they believe in fairy tales or not. I agree with you 100%. And there are too many things in my own life that I wish I had the power to take back.

@AncientNight I stand corrected and agree.

Welcome Alliegirl! Keep on posting!

@Diogenes
How about, "the world is perceptually flat in a spherical way"?

You can respect a person’s right to believe what they will and respectfully disagree with them even if you don’t respect the particularl belief that person holds.

@Draco Fair enough! Nobody ever let a wolf among his sheep herd without a loaded gun on reserve, lol!! I welcome the Admins' scrutiny! Be well!

Alliegirl you make an excellent point ?

3

If they're looking to learn about different perspectives, then more power to them. But, I find in most secular-based communities when the devoted religious join it's to start arguments that they're certain they're going to win. It drums up a lot of temporary drama and just ends up reducing the thoughtfulness of arguments from both sides until everybody looks like an ass.

21

I've been in and out of atheist/agnostic groups since the mid 90s. Letting in religious peeps always leads to problems and eventually dissolves the group.

2

Let them in. The trouble makers can be banned and the rest can be educated. The best tactic I've found is to boil it straight down to logic and getting them to acknowledge what a logical fallacy it, explain it, give an example of it, and then either confirm that what they said was fallacious or explain why it doesn't qualify as that and is instead a false flag.

32

I just joined so I don't really have a lay of the land yet. That said, from the description of the site, I was led to believe this would be a place where we secularists could go to get away from the religious. Far be it from me to need a safe space, that's not what I'm trying to say. But let's be real, religious people own the world. They dominate the conversation everywhere. I don't think they belong here. They can go to their churches for fellowship. I don't want them here proselytizing and trying to convert us. I am tired of fighting with the religious and just want to find likeminded people that truly get where I'm coming from because that is really hard to find.

Maybe, just maybe, from all of the madness of almost all religious people ... they might just make a statement that would give a glimmer of consideration. And isn't that why we are here? To be open enough to discover the truth for ourselves?

I agree. I'm new too but I also think it's going to be pretty hard to actively keep them out. I suppose unless they are causing a problem their really isn't a need to bother over it.

garlon999: No, I'm here to meet non-religious people so I don't have to have those damned discussions!

It bears pointing out that there is no universally accepted definition of "religion", and there are many people who consider themselves religious who do not believe in gods, nor in anything supernatural. Those folks--like me--belong here as much as anyone else.

@catdogartlove me too I really can’t even tolerate that BS, even driving past a church pisses me off, knowing all the fools inside are sucked in, brainwashed and giving their hard earned money to this bullshit. There is so much wrong with all of it!

@Funeralgirl Glad I'm not the only one who feels like that, I really do resent churches putting up 15 foot posters in garish colours announcing to the world that basically conforming to idiocy and prejudice is somehow a good thing.
I particularly hate having to explain to my kids why some building have huge frightening statues of a half naked bleeding dying man outside of them.

I sorta agree with ya, but I think there's enough room for everyonel, After all, by them simply being here gives you a chance to help change their worldview. Equal opportunity. If you don't want a debate, move on to something else. That's easy enough. Just say'n! 🙂

9

If believers are joining then I'm leaving!!!!!

I think the Admins really need to look at this issue judging by the strength of feeling here. As others have said, we don't need a "safe space" but we do need somewhere we can feel able to be ourselves without being trolled or dragged into arguments that are not of our making.

It seems to me that this Group should not be for agnostics and athiests ... it should be for one or another. If we argue among ourselves, then there is no point. It is of considerable interest and concern to me that atheists are almost militant against the very existence of Christians. There is such a broad spectrum of belief and non-belief among peoples of this planet that no one has the right to dismiss the validity of what anyone ... anyone ... believes for themselves - especially people like me, an agnostic. If you don't know, then surely you want to find out. That's the point. If you close your mind then you never will find out. And if you're an atheist, why even be in this Group ... or any Group? An atheist believes that "the end" is the end ... so what's to argue ?????????

let me know where you're going, & i'll come with you.

@garlon999, you couldn't have made your prejudices, generalizations & authoritarian attitude clearer if you'd tried.

5

Let them join. It might be a good way to get them to move from certainty to questioning.

And for me, vice-versa. The very definition of being agnostic must leave open a deeply self-searching for the truth. If you won't listen to possibilities, then call yourself an atheist.

7

This site is called agnostic.com. Agnostic means you believe you can't prove or unproved the existence of god(s). There are agnostic theists. If you built this site for atheists you named it wrong.

and there are three levels of agnosticism: hard, soft and apathetic.

agnostic has nothing to do with belief; it means: not knowing of a god existing. an agnostic theist would thereby be someone who, despite not knowing of an existing god, believes in him - exactly the kind of babble people attempt to escape when joining this site.

4

When my "faith-full" friends try to give me a hard time about doubting the existence of a Higher Power, I often say, "I don't try to make you NOT believe; why is it so important to you that I do?"

So. If a believer comes in with the intention of trying to "save" us, spare me. If they just want to hang out, fine. ....although I can't imagine why they would. ????

Some of them are emotionally unstable, for sure. But some are sincere and want to help by giving their views. It depends on what those views are as to whether or not they help me get off the fence. -- The one thing that really has a dramatic effect on me is this: Why, on the otherhand, do atheists get so angry, disgusted, and resentful of those who do believe? The believers are not hurting them. Why do they make a case for conversion from Christianity? It appears to me that many atheists are really almost militant in trying to make believers fools or fooled., and obviously as an enemy. What's it to an athiest if another person believes? That is strange. Very strange.

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