Agnostic.com

59 9

LINK Atheism Is Inconsistent with the Scientific Method, Prizewinning Physicist Says - Scientific American

This guy thinks exactly like I do. He's an agnostic scientist in the same flavor as I am.

It's a good read if you want to understand why I also think atheism is unscientific, why scientism is bad, and why the "New Atheists" by and large do a disservice to discussions on science and religion both.

TheMiddleWay 8 July 10
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

59 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

22

A scientist that won a prize from a Foundation that has an agenda, I would say....

From their home page...

The Foundation announces its first general research program.
The primary areas of concentration were: utilization of scientific methods in understanding the work and purpose of the creator, research on studying or stimulating progress in religion, and research on the benefits of religion.

Guess I will stick to being an atheist...no agenda...no god...

@TheMiddleWay Fine...believe what you want...I don't believe in the divine or any manifestations of it...

13

I like that he gets to make up his own definition of what atheist believe. Just so he can dispute it. Is that what award winning scientists do? Maybe just Templeton Award winning scientists.

12

I really like to read articles from a foundation that the founder is described as " enthusiastic Christian ", and evangelical Christian " . 😂😂😂👏👏👏
Do u want me to attach the screen shots from wikepedia or u got that ?😂😂😂✌🏻

12

This Foundation has a pro creation bias, it’s whole purpose is to promote the idea that we were created and takes subscriptions from those who wish to prove that god exists. It is not an unbiased scientific organisation, quite the reverse...it has an agenda.

yes..it does...and well hidden if you don't research it...

I am laughing 😂😂😂

@Pralina1 seriously...ha ha ha...hello...intelligent group here...we know about this thing called google...ha ha ha ha

@thinktwice wtf right ? 😂😂😂

@Pralina1 I am screaming in my office right now...you are my favorite to win the internet today! ha ha ha ha I am going to pee my pants if I don't get it under control!

@Pralina1 Thank you my dear...!

12

The debate about which is better, or truer, or more sound between atheism and agnosticism is as stupid and pointless as the discussions within the church as to whether communion bread should be leavened or unleavened.

That intellegent people actually waste time on this is infuriating and the height of navel gazing combined with self congratulations.

And no, I'm not getting sucked into discussing it further. Have fun.

1of5 Level 8 July 10, 2019

@VictoriaNotes well he should be proud of it, he had to work harder to learn it. 😉

Yeah, I've spent to much time with narcissists. It's rubbed off on me.

7

Christian: God saved me from spilling my coffee.
Atheist: Do you have proof?
Christian: No, but I believe it.
Agnostic: I guess we'll never know which is true.

Marz Level 7 July 11, 2019

@TheMiddleWay Your claim about number two is wrong.

"A belief in the non-existence of a God or gods, or (more broadly) an absence of belief in their existence. ..."

The second half is what we're all saying. But you already knew that. The OED would never make such an egregious mistake as the others make.

@TheMiddleWay You've also ignored all other dictionaries. Merriam-Webster? Not to mention the fact that you just keep ignoring WE ATHEISTS, lol. But that doesn't matter to you.

@TheMiddleWay What is dishonest is linking to Merriam-Webster's "atheist" definition, while ignoring where it says one who advocates atheism, without looking at the definition of atheism in their link, which says in the first freakin' entry, "a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods". But you just continue to be dishonest and argue in bad faith.

"a lack of belief" is the half we are talking about.

I am not the pope of atheism, and you are not the pope of dictionaries. Dictionaries get their definitions from the world around us. They are not prescriptive, but descriptive, so continually returning to them is idiotic when what you want to know is the position of a group of people on an issue. You have an avalanche of atheists on this website setting you straight, and you ignore them because you like trolling.

What atheist organizations would you then accept to clarify the stance of our group, since you do not accept me, or the dozens of others here? You are already on record as rejecting American Atheists because you don't like their definition. (You are arguing both sides against the middle. Implying you need someone to speak for our group but not me, and also rejecting the very definitions of one atheist group because you don't like their definitions a priori, is again dishonest and arguing on bad faith. There is more than one group.) Freedom From Religion Foundation? American Humanists? Atheist Alliance International? (Stop me when they add up to overwhelming evidence.) Center for Inquiry? Secular Student Alliance? Secular Coalition of America? Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers? Humanists International? League of Militant Atheists? Atheist Centre? Minnesota Atheists? Atheist Foundation of Australia? Atheist Ireland? Brazilian Association of Atheists and Agnostics?

I'm going to sleep. Others can argue with you.

@TheMiddleWay There is a group. We're called atheists.

@TheMiddleWay Will you quit equivocating on everything. "These should be taken as models to, at least roughly, describe people's beliefs and their attitudes towards belief itself."

When you ignore what we are telling you, what does it matter that there is no religious group "atheists" with a pope to tell you what we all lack a belief in? We are are telling you and you don't even care. So why do you keep insisting that our position isn't really our position but some other position?

@TheMiddleWay And yet I just listed a dozen atheist groups who all define "atheism" the same way. I gave you Merriam-Websters, and you dishonestly ignored "atheism" to focus on "atheist" and hope I wouldn't notice the very link to the word "atheism".

For cryin' out loud, even "conservapedia's" bat shit crazy website acknowledges both "lack of a belief" and "believing there are no gods".

Here's wikipedia if you care, which I'm sure you don't. Feel free to accuse me of not giving citations once again.

"Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist.[5][6] In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[1][2][7][8] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[9][10] which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[10][11][12]"

[en.wikipedia.org]

@TheMiddleWay Are you pretending to be this confused on purpose? Do you really want me to believe you are this lost about our previous conversation? lol Maybe you are having multiple conversations at once and don't remember what you were saying in each one. But I highly doubt it.

@TheMiddleWay I'm not talking about this thread. I'm talking about everything you already told me in the other conversation, doofus. It doesn't matter anyway as you are just wrong. Most atheists do not use the definition you keep foisting on us from the SEP (which is not as clear cut as the section you keep quoting from anyway--the very section theists quote screaming as if their hair is on fire--because apparently you did not read the entire entry), and your narrow definition fits inside the broader one anyway. You just don't care.

Why is it so important for you to define what other people's positions are? And if you are now going to deny this, why is it so important for you to assign "some or many" to this narrow definition (when this is not true either, unless by "some" you mean a tiny, tiny fraction of the whole)? What is your motivation? (I know you will give none, which will allow readers of this thread to make up their own minds.)

@TheMiddleWay, @OwlInASack

Years ago when I was in college, I had a Great Books class for four years. We had two professors lead our round table discussions, and one was a pretty hardcore Calvinist. When we got to the bible and god issues, I always used the "I don't know" agnostic label.

They would always laugh and say that meant I was an atheist--the implication being that in order to believe in god, you had to actually declare theism. Anything else was atheism.

Now that the winds of change are blowing in our direction, they do everything they can to say belief in god isn't really necessary to be a theist. Just say "I don't know" and you can have Jesus at your side, lol. (Some already say atheists go to heaven too, so it doesn't really matter.)

"Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven"
[charterforcompassion.org]

@TheMiddleWay Not everyone. Just believers in one god. It is weird that you assume everyone are theists. Maybe not weird, but...suspicious. lol

@TheMiddleWay You routinely insult my intelligence and education, while pretending you had no idea you are doing so. Touche. Touche.

@TheMiddleWay You make assumptions about me (and others), and then comment as if the premises of those assumptions are true. Doofus. You know what you are doing because you are not as dumb as you pretend. No one is. lol

Me: that was lucky then!

@TheMiddleWay That's not ironic. That's me saying the same thing twice (you are pretending in both, pretending to be dumb in both), and you pretending you didn't understand. Again. 🙂

@TheMiddleWay Agreed, we should avoid ad hominem attacks. It's best if we assume that the other person is presenting arguments in good faith, with no ulterior motives. We're on the same team after all.

@OwlInASack Ah, I'm definitely out of the loop then.

7

For a scientist his reasoning is terrible. According to him, you cannot claim anyone’s imaginations are real or unreal. He thinks atheism is actively disproving an unfalsifiable claim, instead of the rejection of someone’s claim.

Here’s the thought experiment he didn’t take the time to conduct:

Boy claims a god exists in his car. Girl has no evidence there is or isn’t a god, so she cannot reject his claim and therefore being agnostic makes the most sense (according to this physicist).

Feel free to change the place, situation or the imagined entity and the logic in that argument will be equally stupid.

Marz Level 7 July 11, 2019
7

This argument makes logical sense but it is wrong at its core. If you assume that believing in a religion is essentially the zero state, this makes perfect sense. Atheism in this context is a rejection of an accepted normal. Then you can expect that proof is needed to overcome the norm. I fully reject that premise.

At some point, people who did not use scientific methods or any evidence came to a conclusion that if they did not understand why something happened that they could attempt to explain it by offering magical explanations and beings that control the magic.

The author of the article claims that atheism is a hypothesis but that is not true. Religion is the hypothesis. If religion cannot be proven, it is a failed hypothesis and must be discarded or at least be discredited. If you use scientific methods you must accept to some degree of atheism. We do not continue to hold on to hypothesis that cannot be proven.

Alchemy has been discarded. Greek and Roman gods have been left behind. So should be the realm of all myths. His premise is that we should believe every hypothesis that cannot be 100% proven incorrect even if there is no way to ever confirm any part of the premise. It is not scientific method he is using but he's hanging on to false information.

CK-One Level 6 July 10, 2019

I agree. This goes to show that even apparently intelligent people can practice self-delusion when it's in their pecuniary or emotional interest.

@TheMiddleWay The "scientific" method dictates that the burden of proof rests with the one who makes an affirmative statement ("god exists" ), not the others to prove the negative. Theism has many gods. Countless gods in fact, and they are often self-contradictory.

I think that we can fairly affirmatively prove that Zeus doesn't exist. I think we can fairly affirmatively prove Yehew doesn't exist. The problem with theism is that it is a moving target. But if we were to examine every single organized religion, we can fairly prove that they are artificial. As artificial as Joseph Smith and his golden plates.

What we need to enter is the realm of epistemology, a theory of "knowledge": what does it mean when we say we know things, and what does it mean when we say we believe things.

There is nothing in the world that can be 100% iron-clad proven or disproven. That is why there are still those who debate materialism vs. idealism. How do I for absolutely certain know that what I am holding is an actual apple that objectively exist, as opposed to a product of my (or collective) imagination? These are NOT scientific inquiries, but they are in fact philosophical.

A scientific method would start with the presumption that what I hold in my hand looks, feels, and smells like an apple, and even though I cannot be absolutely certain that I "know" it is objectively an apple, I will interact with it with the assumption (usually very safe) that it is an apple. I will take a bite.

It doesn't make me an apple-agnostic to say that I don't know for sure that it is an apple, but I am pretty certain that it is an apple.

There are lots of scientific hypotheses that later prove to be right, but these hypotheses are built upon evidence, not lack of non-evidence. And just because the Theory of Evolution starts with the word "theory" it doesn't make it a theory: any honest biologist will tell you that the evolution is a fact. If so, much of "theistic" belief goes out in the smoke.

We want to hold on to theism, for whatever comfort that it may give, but theism is a by-product of exploitation of the powerless by the powerful, and the human history is an excellent witness to that charge.

@AtheistReader He knows all of this. I had this discussion with him over days and days and dozens upon dozens (if not hundreds) of messages. So have others.

@TheMiddleWay You did not address the points I made. Instead, you simply restated your position. Leading me to believe that this isn't a conversation.

@greyeyed123 I am giving up.

@AtheistReader I told you so. lol

@TheMiddleWay It's taking me awhile to get back to this but I have to comment on one thing that you stated. You mentioned the Higgs Boson and String Theory as examples of how you cannot discard or disregard a hypothesis. Thousands of scientists have done exactly that. I think that you are unaware of the peer review process. Even if you cannot disprove something there has to be agreement and the hypothesis has to be tested and reproducible.

Let's talk about testing. I have heard repeatedly that God is jealous, omniscient and omnipotent. If I were to proclaim there's no god right now, just like I have so many times before, I should be struck by lightning or something. Yet repeatedly I have not. Over and over again. It does not conclusively conclude that there are no gods because there could be a different less important version of a god but I repeatedly try to piss off whatever fantasy god you come up with until the only God left is insignificant and powerless or dead. In that case, either you can believe that there are no gods or you can disregard these gods because they don't matter.

I choose the obvious, no god. Atheism. If any real evidence is shown, then I will change my mind. That's the same for God, Higgs boson or string theory but let's be honest there's strong, reproducible supporting evidence for both Higgs and String theory. None of a god.

6

I see you've found another bright shiny thing to get agnostics and atheists at each other's throats again on this site, Middle. Of course. Well, I'm not going to be distracted from MY goal: opposing religion!

I concur.

His point; that "agnostics say there's no evidence - but that doesn't prove "no god"....is fairly reasonable. An Atheist says he's absolutely sure there's no god. How can an atheist be absolutely sure? He makes a good argument.

I like this chart, and share it often;

@Robecology It doesn't prove it, no one is saying it does. Agnosticism is the best reason there is to be an Atheist.
Middle Way thinks that Agnosticism is a Middle Ground between Atheism and Theism. It's not.

@TheMiddleWay if only you disapproved of religion as much as you disapprove of atheism, Middle..

5

Before I read the article, which I will, the answers to the natural world (atheism?) are not found in science alone. But with science, art and philosophy together, some major "figuring things out" happen.
I suppose that is why religion considers all three a "danger" to their existence

twill Level 7 July 14, 2019

@TheMiddleWay Mis Characterization or not, the vast majority of the indoctrinated are swallowing it up, spitting it out and taking up arms and are ready to become/ becoming martyrs.

5

Wow. His arguments are painfully stupid. I can only assume he's agnostic about a celestial teapot, the disappearing elephant in my trunk, bigfoot, unicorns, etc. And of course he'd be totally respectful of the people that successfully impose their genocidal space wizard agenda as necessary. Fuck Scientific American for not asking the simplest of questions.

Rather than making a bald-faced declaration of disbelief concerning ultimate reality, it would seem more honest to just say that you don’t understand.

@OwlInASack I am also an atheist with respect to the set of mad and often immoral claims presented by some organized religious groups. A set of claims is not all there is to reality.

Gleiser is not calling for people to believe the unbelievable. I think he is asking us to look directly at the stark implications of reality and see the limitations to our ability to comprehend. If A person declares in connection with ultimate reality that they disbelieve, that is a sure sign that they have not truly looked.

Deciding that the moon is not a goddess or that it is, after all, not made of cheese—that is only the first step. We should go on from there to examine and study the moon as best we can with an attitude of curiosity, awe and reverence. Sitting on your ass and spouting disbelief will get you nowhere.

5

His understanding of atheism is wrong.

"What I mean by that is, what is atheism? It’s a statement, a categorical statement that expresses belief in nonbelief. “I don’t believe even though I have no evidence for or against, simply I don’t believe.” Period. It’s a declaration. But in science we don’t really do declarations. We say, “Okay, you can have a hypothesis, you have to have some evidence against or for that.” And so an agnostic would say, look, I have no evidence for God or any kind of god (What god, first of all? The Maori gods, or the Jewish or Christian or Muslim God? Which god is that?) But on the other hand, an agnostic would acknowledge no right to make a final statement about something he or she doesn’t know about. “The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,” and all that. This positions me very much against all of the “New Atheist” guys—even though I want my message to be respectful of people’s beliefs and reasoning, which might be community-based, or dignity-based, and so on. And I think obviously the Templeton Foundation likes all of this, because this is part of an emerging conversation."

It is not a declaration. It is a presumption. Besides, if you look at all the organized religion, we have more than compelling evidence that they are man-made, and those "gods" do not exist.

What you are talking about is hypothetical "spirituality." Is is possible that it exists, yes. But unless there is an affirmative "evidence" that it exists, it is perfectly scientific to assume it doesn't.

5

Believing in unsubstantiated supernatural mythology is vastly more unscientific then choosing not to believe. Personally, I came to be atheist because of logic and the overwhelming lack of evidence to support the existence of any gods. So, I'm miles closer to being scientific than any religious person.

@Antifred Okay... seems your talking semantics but when a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or the vast majority of other religions use the word "god" they are referring to a supernatural being, not a person or a silly collective of people. What I am referring to and what you are referring to are two separate things. Sure, you can call the population of New York City a god or all of the clowns in the world a god but that has nothing to do with organized religion or the religious definition of "god".

When you are using the word "god" you are not referring to a supernatural being in the same context as the Christian god (for example). I don't think you are claiming that someone who is Taco God has omniscience or omnipotence or is worthy of devotion and worship as a higher being.

A couple of thousand years of reprinting a book does not in any way make it more true. If so, then Zeus and Odin are real. And only the Torah is more than 2000 years old since the Koran wasn't written until the 7th century and the Bible wasn't compiled until the 5th century.

Quoting the Bible has as much validity as quoting "The Hobbit" and expecting me to believe that dragons are real.

@Charles1971 Hey mate, you do realize that " AntiFred" is, in fact, imho, a religious Troll, or a Religious 'roach as I like to call them, and you've just opened the door to a possible interminable debate (aka flood of) consisting of endless repetitive biblical citations from him?

@Antifred 'Spiritualist/Spiritualism/Supernaturalist/ism' is not that merely a 'cop-out' kind of situation religiously speaking, FriarFred?
What precisely and exact is a SPIRIT ( NOT the alcoholic variety of course), what, also is 'Supernaturalism' if it is just simply something above or beyond the PRESENTLY observable part of the natural world, a world btw, that we are only just beginning to explore fully and understand very little of this far.

Also, I stated that IN MY HONEST Opinion, NOTE, MY Honest Opinion, that you are a Religious Troll/Roach I was OFFERING up my OWN Opinion and NOT making an actual Accusation, there IS a very GREAT difference between STATEMENT of Opinion and STATEMENT of FACT in case you are/were unaware.

And, as per my opinion, I shall leaving 'kindergarten tactics, as you so kindly put it, to you since, IN MY OPINION, you are far better suited to them than I.

@Antifred Yes, I see that you are already, and as is your usual trait, resorting to interminable religious citations, BUT what empirical evidence and PROOF positive do YOU offer up that this 'ruach'/'spirit' actually exists?
YOU have made the claim, therefore, the ONUS is solely upon YOU to prove your claim, that Sir, is the way things are done.
Ergo, come up with the Proof or forever remain silent.

@Antifred Dude I think I am correct in assuming that NOBODY wants to read this shit. You can't even spell and it's downright ANNOYING.

@Antifred PLEASE do TRY to tell something, no matter how MINISCULE it may be, from you exulted bible that I have NOT already known from my years of Studies to gain my ThD.

@Antifred Conjecture, AntiFred, aka FriarFed, merely CONJECTURE not PROOF.
I requested empirical PROOF from you or for you, failing giving that as requested, to remain forever silent.
On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 means a failure and 10 means you've succeeded, SIR, you've hit the MINUS 1, i.e. a Complete, Utter and Irrevocable FAILURE.

@Antifred Fred, Fred, Fred, my sympathies are with you, imho, you must live a truly tedious and boring life there in Texass, sorry Texas.
Have you ever considered just putting away your cellphone or whatever, getting up and going over and kissing the wife, hugging the children or even just simply going out into the countryside and enjoying what nature has to offer?

@Antifred okay there Antifred, play your 'Theist's Favorite Sport" as in my little offering below.
I think, by now, we all know full well that you HAVE absolutely NO empirical proof nor evidence to offer up so run and hide as all Theists do so very well.

@Antifred You seem to have ignored my response and gotten into a posting contest with Triphid.

I'm not replying to the numerous posts between yourself and Triphid that popped up in the past 12 or so hours.

As you stated, man made "jesus style god" and any god that is made up (fictional) can be dismissed.

So, unless you have something more substantial to say then I'm done.

@Charles1971 Sorry, but I ignored unintentionally due to the unwanted bombardment from another source. Please accept my most sincere apologies.

@Antifred I do NOT believe nor think that I am better than anyone else, I am just me, an individual who is a human being with the self-same Morals and Ethics, though somewhat honed and improved over the millenia since, that our Proto-Hominid Ancestors worked out for themselves when they first climbed down out of the trees and stood erect on 2 legs for the first time. THAT is what makes me Human, that is what makes me think, learn, study, better myself knowledge-wise, that is what drives me to pick up and read books, etc, on numerous and diverse subjects rather than merely scanning through ONE single collection of ancient 'books' assembled and purportedly claimed to be the "Written Word/s of a Supreme Deity" that absolutely NO-ONE has ever seen, etc.
When I express my opinions, I express them from knowledge gained by studying, learning, etc, from almost innumerable sources INCLUDING over 7 years of intense studies required to achieve a ThD (Doctorate in Theology and Comparative Modern Religions) PLUS 2 other PhDs and a number of Bachelors Degrees as well.
I have and use NO prejudices, nor pessimisms or condescending attitudes BUT I do use Logic, Reason and Reasoning PLUS tried and tested, proven Empirical Evidences and Facts.

I think Antifred just wants to argue for the sake of argument. If I said I like pizza he'd argue the definition of pizza.

@Charles1971 Precisely.

5

Technically speaking here, it IS not the Atheists that are wrong since we only REFUTE the unfounded CLAIMS of the Religious since any claim made WITHOUT proven evidence is considered, logically,to be little more than a FALSE Claim at best, therefore it IS the onus of the Claimant, the Religious, to furnish the Proof and Proven Evidence that supports their claim in the first place.

Not really. Agnostics "claim" nothing.

@Storm1752 Atheists claim nothing as well.

@Storm1752 Do not Agnostics state that they are 'unsure' ( for want of a better word/phrase) whether or not a God/Deity exists or not, whereas an Atheist, like myself for example, simply REFUTE the unfounded, unproven CLAIMS made by believers that a God/Deity exists BECAUSE there never has been ANY empirically proven EVIDENCE brought forward by those believers to support their claims.
Yes, the believers can and do hold up their bibles and state loudly that this is ALL the proof they need since it IS the " Written Word of God" BUT NOWHERE within that collection of books, which it truly is btw, is there even one single thing to state or show clearly and undeniably that IS the 'book' and was written by this God him/herself.

@TheMiddleWay You can 'believe' what or however you wish BUT since Atheism is NOT in any way shape nor form a system of Belief then it makes no claim whatsoever, it simply states, asserts and affirms that, given the continually growing 'mountains' of empirically tried, tested and proven evidence offered up in its favour that a Supreme Deity/God does NOT nor never has existed, ergo it IS not a CLAIM, it is a proven assertion.

@TheMiddleWay A Theist holds forth only ONE book and CLAIMS it to be fact and Truth, an Atheist lists countless, often innumerable books, filled with tried and tested EVIDENCE and asserts and affirms that these do actually hold facts and truths that can and do stand by themselves against all comers.

@TheMiddleWay Here we go again with words and labels. Yes, a belief that there is are no gods or an unbelief in gods is a claim. That’s not necessarily what an atheist is though.

@TheMiddleWay Well if you think "I don't believe in god" means or implies “gods don't exist”, then I don’t know what to say. They are different statements.

@TheMiddleWay Speaking here for myself, which, for the most part is what only anyone can truly do, as an Atheists from childhood I can safely and honestly state that through my many, many years of learning and studying that it is my honest opinion that the God/s, etc, that people choose to worship are little more than products of the imaginations of people from more older/ancient times whose knowledge and understandings of the world around them was extremely limited, etc.
Therefore, in my well considered and somewhat well educated opinion, I am at LEAST 99.9999% CERTAIN that absolutely NO God, Gods, Goddesses in any shape nor form, etc, have ever existed or even exist in the here and now.

@TheMiddleWay So it is impossible to not believe one way or the other on anything?

@TheMiddleWay Science as science is NOT a system of belief nor does it require or demand belief,.
Science is system of questioning, searching for, discovering, examining, trying, testing, re-trying, re-testing, re-examining and finally actually PROVING by empirical means and measures the FACTS and the Truths.
Whereas religion and religious BELIEFS absolutely DISCOURAGE any form of Questioning, Examining, Trying, Testing and the usage of empirical means and measurement, religions DEMAND Faith, usually BLIND Faith and throughout its history has regularly castigated those who have dared question it.

@TheMiddleWay No, not really. Cosmologist do NOT really believe as you have just posted, they cannot state nor believe ( for want of a better and more appropriate word) that " what happens on Earth here and now, happens a million/billion Light distant." They might HYPOTHESISE given that which has been observed here BUT that which has occurred here may NOT be the same as that which has/is or may occur elsewhere because the Universe and events occurring throughout it and within are differing and changing constantly.
For example, take the possibility of Extraterrestrial life, though mammals have evolved here they may never have evolved a billion or even a million Light Years away on other planets, something else may have evolved, not the so-called Hollywood style Aliens we see depicted, but something beyond our present scope of imagining, perhaps some kind of semi-intelligent, limbless, water dwelling, jellyfish species for example. No-one truly knows exactly what is out there for a FACT.
As for your "axioms and beliefs" well many of those have fallen by the way-side as scientific knowledge and understandings have grown, e.g. it was once state and believed that the Earth WAS the centre of the Solar System, the Sun and planets revolved/orbited around the Earth and the stars were mere 'pin-holes' in the firmament of the night sky which allowed specks of light to pass through them. Well that axiom/belief has gone the way of the dinosaurs, has it not?

@TheMiddleWay Well, Light speed has been measured and tested repeatedly and still stands at approx. 180,000 miles or 300,000kms per second just as do radio waves as well.
Ergo, other than the light emitted by our Sun, light striking our eyes/planet from space left its point of emission anywhere between 1 Earth second ago to 1 Light Year + ago. Hence the light we see from the stars, NOT the Moon or planets in THIS Solar system btw, at night could have been emitted anywhere from 1 Light Year ago ( 6 Million, Million miles distant) to 10s of Billions of Miles distant and even Billions of years back in time.
We NEVER see or observe the light emitted from, for example, the Binary Stars nearest to our system that was emitted this very moment/second or even the year before today BECAUSE it has not reached us yet, it WILL arrive here some time is the distant future though.
Yes, scientific theories change as more evidence, etc, is added to them, that either disproves the original or enhances it whichever may the case. But that is how science works thankfully and religions founder.

@TheMiddleWay The have almost innumerable experiments done since, and including, Einstein's experiments to determine and calculate the speed of light and every one of them has arrived at precisely the same rate of speed.
IF, you do NOT believe me then there is a very simple, easy experiment you and a friend can try for yourselves; Find a site/place flat and open enough where YOU can stand separated by a scaled down distant of the 186,000/300,000 miles/kms in as complete darkness as possible. Have your friend stand at one end of the distance separating you, you and stopwatch at the other, then when you see your friend switch on his/her flashlight, record the time that elapsed between it being switch on and the light shining in your eyes. Multiply that time by the co-efficient used to calculate the scaling DOWN of the distance of 186,000/300,000miles/kms and you will get the precise same result as did REAL scientists before you.

@TheMiddleWay Well, it CAN be said that EVERYTHING we 'know' re- the Universe is MERELY based solely UPON data, etc, we have extrapolated here in the very tiny, insignificant patch of a massive Universe.

@TheMiddleWay Yes, BUT we do know from both the Voyager Programs and the Lunar Landings, unless of course you believe both were faked, that e.m. radiations ( radio signals) go through a type of time lapse between transmissions and receptions the further away from Earth, etc, the transceivers are, hence it goes to prove that since light is an Electromagnetic Transmission, just as are radio waves DO travel at a set speed only.

@TheMiddleWay Then, IF the time lapses between transmission from Earth and reception on the Moon, for example, are unproven evidential facts, then what, exactly are they, complete and utter bunkum perhaps?

5

my atheism has nothing to do with science, or lack of science, or anything except my belief that there is no more chance of their being a god than there is of being a tooth fairy -- somewhat less, in fact, because the tooth fairy still owes me a quarter (plus interest). i don't care whether agnostics think i am unscientific. i don't need to waste my time and energy trying to figure out whether or not there is a god; i don't CARE. it's a nonissue, a nothingburger. the only time it's half a burger is when someone tries to legislate, execute or adjudicate religion where it doesn't belong. apart from that, i just live my life quite happily without any gods (but i might take the tooth fairy to people's court).

g

5

The atheist position is the skeptical position. If you don't believe things without evidence you will not believe things that are untrue. If you believe things without evidence you can believe diametrically opposed things which is irrational.

FYI, TheMiddleWay believes atheism can only be a claim that no gods exist. Lacking a belief is not a definition he accepts, and he will support it with the SEP over and over again. (I will not post any more comments in this thread because I do not want to have that argument with him, or anyone, again. At least not today. lol)

@greyeyed123 thanks for the heads up...

@TheMiddleWay Merriam-Webster and Oxford beg to disagree.

@TheMiddleWay 🙄 Yes, when I want to know the meaning, origin and Latin root of a word, I definitely pick up my encyclopedia set.

4

"Theism Is Inconsistent with the Scientific Method" …

4

I'm always surprised when people think theres sone way to ratiobalize this shit.

4

Hmmmm. Seems like you rattled a few cages with that one😱. Love to see them feathers fly. More like f the same please Middle!

@ReadyforaChange Glad to see courteous interaction is still part of the eclectic landscape here.

@Geoffrey51 No courtesy for troublemakers. Go away troll.

@ReadyforaChange Why troll? Who is trouble being caused for?

@ReadyforaChange ditto!

@ReadyforaChange, @Geoffrey51 hey, you vicious sexual predator (and I have several ladies who will testify now, why are You still slinking around?!

@AnneWimsey Is he? Have we reported him?

@ReadyforaChange Please do as its incorrect.

@ReadyforaChange I I gave Admin full details about 6 months ago...nada reply or action....

@AnneWimsey Which was what Anne? No action as nothing to answer.

@Geoffrey51 "nada" Spanish for "nothing".......

@AnneWimsey What were the details if I may ask because this seems all very odd to me. Please copy and paste some remark that you have viewed in order for me to comment.

@Geoffrey51 um, remember Betsey, who was trusting enough to walk into your house, where you threw down a pillow & told her to "get on your knees"?...turns out she is a friend of mine! We compared your messages, and modus operandi, you sleaze

@AnneWimsey that’s not me Anne. I have no idea who Betsy is. No one from here has ever walked into my house. I am in Australia and have been for 12 years. Please look again and you will see that is not me.

@Geoffrey51 then you are hacked...he uses your camel pic on here & Plenty of Fish as well. Plus the name Geoffrey. He is in Avon, Ct, near Hartford. One reason I gave him my trust, and Betsey too, is because he is on both this site & POF

@AnneWimsey Thanks Anne that is a bit disturbing. I’m not even on Facebook let alone Plenty of Fish!

I’ll let admin know.

4

Complete Bull Shit!

zblaze Level 7 July 10, 2019
4

You can be an agnostic and a scientist at the same time, but you cannot be an atheist and a scientist at the same time. The very nature of the scientific method doesn’t allow atheism and science to co-exist.

That's just nonsense.

Come on. That is absolute nonsense

@TheMiddleWay "To be an atheist is to believe in something for which there is no evidence for."

Words have definitions, and that ain't it, chief.

@TheMiddleWay To be an atheist is to NOT believe in something for which there is no evidence for, is the correct definition.

@TheMiddleWay Bruh, as usual, your smugness belies your bias. Words have definitions, they are universally agreed upon, understood to mean a specific THING and written in books called DICTIONARIES. You should totes pick one up.

3

Looks like someone found their poster boy. I could only read so much of this horseshit. Where is PT Barnum when you need him?

“This whole notion of finality and final ideas is, to me, just an attempt to turn science into a religious system, which is something I disagree with profoundly.”
Don’t like the competition?

"To me, science is one way of connecting with the mystery of existence. "
One of many. Thinking helps too.

“ I’m not talking about the science of materials, or high-temperature superconductivity, which is awesome and super important, but that’s not the kind of science I’m doing. I’m talking about science as part of a much grander and older sort of questioning about who we are in the big picture of the universe. To me, as a theoretical physicist and also someone who spends time out in the mountains, this sort of questioning offers a deeply spiritual connection with the world, through my mind and through my body. Einstein would have said the same thing, I think, with his cosmic religious feeling.”
I me mine, I me mine, I me mine

“I believe we should take a much humbler approach to knowledge, in the sense that if you look carefully at the way science works, you’ll see that yes, it is wonderful — magnificent! — but it has limits. And we have to understand and respect those limits. And by doing that, by understanding how science advances, science really becomes a deeply spiritual conversation with the mysterious, about all the things we don’t know.”
A humbler approach to knowledge and ....put more faith into faith? It's what he doesn't say that gets the base all riled up

“What I mean by that is, what is atheism? It’s a statement, a categorical statement that expresses belief in nonbelief. “
Not as good as a belief in belief evidently

“There is a difference between “science” and what we can call “scientism,” which is the notion that science can solve all problems. To a large extent, it is not science but rather how humanity has used science that has put us in our present difficulties. Because most people, in general, have no awareness of what science can and cannot do. So they misuse it, and they do not think about science in a more pluralistic way. So, okay, you’re going to develop a self-driving car? Good! But how will that car handle hard choices, like whether to prioritize the lives of its occupants or the lives of pedestrian bystanders? Is it going to just be the technologist from Google who decides? Let us hope not! You have to talk to philosophers, you have to talk to ethicists.”
No Shit Sherlock. It might even be how people used many other "things" that has affected the outcome concerning where the human race is right now. "Things" such as weapons, energy, religion, wisdom, land, animal, water,..........the list does not really end.

twill Level 7 July 14, 2019
3

Ohferpetessake, another BS claim........

They need attention...gets lonely in they mama's basement.

3

[whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com]
Also, sorry but agnostics are wimpy. You either believe or you don't...simple.
AND...religion had it's run...it's done now. Get over it.

@owlinasack thank you.

3

Imo, the problem here is fundamentalism as always.

Because most of the people on here who identify as hardcore atheists are simply another variation of fundamentalist, which puts them squarely in the same camp as fundamentalist christians, fundamentalist islamics, fundamentalist democrats, fundamentalist republicans, or any other idiotic fundamentalism.

Ironic, ain't it?

You don't know what you don't know . Get over it.

And that's about as scientific as it gets.

@ToolGuy please provide a link.

@ToolGuy oh I've watched many of Dawkins videos as well. No I don't think enough has been said. There's a difference between science and scientism.

I'm not accusing Dawkins of scientism here, although I'm not not accusing him of it either.

@ToolGuy I'm not unfamiliar with Dawkins, but I have not read that. I will do so, and then get back to you.

I completely agree with you. Some atheists get trapped in binary thinking. By their very definition, the presumption is that ALL subjects which have been addressed by religion (regardless of the scientific solutions) have only two possible answers which are "I believe" or "I don't believe'. They don't understand that in some cases there is a third (or middle) answer which is "I don't know." Perhaps this is where the creator of this post got his username?

@ToolGuy I don't think you understand what probability means.

@ToolGuy argument from authority fallacy.

@ToolGuy yes. I didn't challenge your credentials. I said I don't think you understand probability. You can have all the credentials in the world but I'm basing what I said on what you actually said. And how is my argument false exactly? I didn't make one. I made a statement.

so here is a syllogism for you to critique.

  1. You claim there is zero probability for God or for flying purple people eaters.

  2. The probability of God or flying purple people eaters is not zero.

Ergo, since I assume you are earnest, you don't understand what probability is.

@ToolGuy what tests, exactly are you referring to?

@ToolGuy no population that you know of. No population that you're aware of. Scientist in the 17th century could have used the same argument about atoms not existing. Or until recently scientists regarding say the Higgs boson. Or any of a great number of other examples. That's kind of the point here.

@ToolGuy by the way, did you know that 87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

@ToolGuy I neither believe nor have any desire to believe in any gods, as i define them. That's not what this is about. I don't for a minute accept the existence of say Yahweh or Jehovah or Zeus or Thor or any of the rest.

But my lack of belief does not equate to certainty, rather simply to having enough evidence to form a conclusion.

This is about clarity of thought. This is about intellectual honesty. This is about science vs scientism. This is about how muddy and emotional thinking in one area can carry over into other areas which is unwarranted.

For that matter, define god.

@TheMiddleWay yes, I feel the same way. It's probably a more accurate term.

@ToolGuy You just proved my point! Your response immediately defaulted to God and some canned atheist analogy derived from a book you read. Look at all of my answers to this post with precision. You will see that I never mention "god" as part of any possible answer. Who the hell is god anyway? That concept means nothing to me. Ask anyone about god and you will likely get a different answer. Speaking of likelihood, I literally made a living by developing deterministic and stochastic inference models (one of my many skills) which answered questions for domestic and foreign government agencies. Please don't ask for details because I'm not at liberty to talk about it. You should benefit from reading the article I have attached. Open the blue hyperlink to Bayes' Theorem if you want to cogitate on statistical analysis.

[forbes.com]

I have to say that I agree 100%. I joined several atheist based groups on Facebook and was really disappointed at how close minded they were on various topics. I merely pointed out what you just said and I was kicked out of the group. Pansies.

@Morelshroomgirl Dont let it discourage you here. There are some of those, but a great many open minded and somewhat more rational as well. This is a great site, welcome aboard!

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:372141
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.