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LINK Atheism Is Inconsistent with the Scientific Method, Prizewinning Physicist Says - Scientific American

This guy thinks exactly like I do. He's an agnostic scientist in the same flavor as I am.

It's a good read if you want to understand why I also think atheism is unscientific, why scientism is bad, and why the "New Atheists" by and large do a disservice to discussions on science and religion both.

TheMiddleWay 8 July 10
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59 comments (26 - 50)

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3

This is very simple. The scientist is referring to hard atheism (i.e. an explicit claim that no gods exist), which is indeed inconsistent with the scientific method.

The correct position is soft (or agnostic) atheism (i.e. a non-acceptance of the god claim, subject to change with further evidence). This position is completely consistent with the scientific method.

We begin with the null hypothesis (e.g. a flat Earth) and replace it with an alternative hypothesis (e.g. a spherical Earth) if there is sufficient supporting evidence. I posted this video once before, which is an excellent explanation.

palex Level 6 July 10, 2019

@TheMiddleWay It's not oxymoronic MW. One is about the lack of knowledge and a good reason to not believe that a god exist. The other is about lack of belief.

The term Gnostic Atheist is an oxymoron.

ToolGuy - If one can demonstrate that the association between the god hypothesis and reality is nil, then yes, the null hypothesis has effectively been demonstrated. That may require some work.

TMW - If we wish to maintain consistency with scientific methodology, the correct position is to not accept a claim unless sufficient evidence is presented. With respect to the existence of a god, “agnostic atheism” is the most accurate term in the context of contemporary definitions, but the label used is of lesser importance than the understanding.

ToodGuy - Please proceed with your demonstration.

TMW - Yes, your non-acceptance of my million dollar claim is analogous to the “atheism,” while your lack of knowledge about my claim is the “agnosticism,” although an alternative nomenclature is perfectly fine also. I’m not sure if I see anything in this discussion other than the definition of terms.

3

Everyone has an opinion.

@ToolGuy I agree but one of the problems is determining which is which.

@ToolGuy I doubt we have any trouble determining how our opinions are formed, it is other's opinions that we question.

2

I had never heard of the Templeton Prize and its origins.
Omniscient Wikipedia states: The prize was originally awarded to people working in the field of religion (Mother Teresa was the first winner), but in the 1980s the scope broadened to include people working at the intersection of science and religion.
So obviously the foundation wants to find some scientist to make the whole thing look more neutral. Its a marketing exercise to take a willing scientist.
The judges award the prize to a living person who, in the estimation of the judges, "has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life's spiritual dimension …"
It doesn't specifically say human life's spiritual dimension.

This is a religious prize. The affirmation on the foundation's website:

"Men and women of any creed, profession, or national origin may be nominated for the Templeton Prize. The distinguished roster of previous winners includes representatives of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, **but also others as well."

The sequence of the lineup: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism ... and then as an afterthought: "but also others as well" Sounds like a tautology.

2

"Templeton Prize, formerly Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion and Templeton Prize for Progress Toward Research or Discoveries About Spiritual Realities, "
It is a prize for the advancement of religion, nothing to do with science.

2

You lost me at “Templeton Prize winner.”

2

Contorted reasoning.

2

The New Atheists make a lot of good points and I've learned a lot listening to them.
That said, the scientist and you are saying the exact same thing I've been saying since I came on here:
atheism is bogus.
I never thought of it precisely as "unscientific," but of course it is.
It's also extremely obnoxious.
Anyway, THANK YOU for sharing that.
Now maybe our distant cousins will learn a little humility and finally realize the vast DIFFERENCE between agnosticism and atheism, and stop all the ceaseless, eternal arguments with agnostics about it.
If they want to be "sure" about the non-existence of any order, pattern, coherent direction in the material world, fine.
But I'm not.
Those simple two facts speak VOLUMES about our relative perspectives: it seems like almost a trivial difference until you actually THINK about what it means about our respective worldviews, the difference between thinking:

  1. life is meaningless, and
  2. maybe life ISN'T meaningless.

That's probably why atheists are such crabapples about everthing, while agnostics are so cheerful and happy!😀

Thanks again.

P.S. You have to know and be prepared for the inevitable firestorm you have now provoked. I do it sometimes and sit back and wait for the wave upon wave of atheistic hate to wash over me!
In this sense they are just as bad (or worse) as an offended Christian or Muslim...how DARE they challenge the absolute TRUTH. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sickening.

The difference is, one is about lack of knowledge, the other is about lack of belief. Agnosticism is the reason I am also an Atheist. Being an Atheist is not being sure, being an Agnostic isn't about not being sure.

@TheMiddleWay Right. So am I.

2

He makes a good point the more you learn the more you realize what you don't know quantum physics is a example outcome can be influenced by the observer figure that one out

bobwjr Level 10 July 10, 2019

But may have a thesist agenda

2

I appreciate what he has to say here.

2

stated perfectly. brilliant!

@TheMiddleWay people see what they're looking for. sometimes it's there sometimes it's not. This guy nails it.

2

I concur with him regarding that science and knowledge have limits. I do not agree with his defintion of the limits or the relationship to sprituality.

First off, IMO the limits surrounding science has little to with the ability to advance scientific discovery, invention relating to that discovery (technology) or developing means for advancing either. IMO the limitations comes in the ability to measure the impact or consequences acquired from the new knowledge of our inventions. Yes, we can do it, but should we do it?

Humans, with the exception of the astronauts, are limited in their world view and frame of references. Being confined to this planet, the totality of our experiences from which understanding can be drawn is limited. Our paradigm of existence is therefore limited. Consequently we make decisions based on that paradigm and as history has demonstrated, we make the same errors in judgement repeatedly.

Humans are a relatively young species. We have not been around long enough to have been able to expand our philosophical horizons much beyond our early sapian beginnings. Yes we have substantially more content and knowledge, but like our early sapian bretheren, we are still limited by our world and its experiential limitations. The exception may be the astronauts. We lack the emotional maturity that allows us as a species to comprehend and temper our intellectual capability. It has nothing to do with spirituality unless you want call our naivete spritual.

t1nick Level 8 July 10, 2019

@TheMiddleWay
IMO we don't necessarily have a limitation in what we can do, just a limitation in understanding the implications and the lsrger picture. Afterall, we live on the same planet as the Neaderthals and early sapian. We are subject to the same physical limitations and reactions to our physical world as they were. Again with the exceptions of the astronauts

@TheMiddleWay

Based on rate of advancements in knowledge and technology. Each advancement opens up new doors and avenues for other advancements. Again the can, but limited on the should.

1

It's super funny how hard people try to avoid the label of atheist.

How many times have we seen people confuse gnostic atheism for all atheism while calling themselves agnostic?

At this point I have to assume it's a purposeful misunderstanding to avoid the dirty "A" label.

Lack of belief does not imply certainty. I have no evidence unicorns exist, therefore I do not believe they do. However, that doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm open to the idea, show me the evidence.

@TheMiddleWay

"Theism is generally the certainty that people have in there gods."

Nope. Gnostic theism is the certainty people have in their gods. Agnostic theists, the majority of them probably, aren't certain. Your reasoning is flawed at its foundation.

"Do you have evidence they don't exist?"

This isn't how evidence or the burden of proof work. It's not how the "scientific method" you keep shielding your weak argument with works. "Argument from ignorance" may also apply.

Also, you do not have evidence unicorns do not exist. No more than you do God. They are mentioned in the bible and various bits of literature. While we have not found their bones or shiny horns, well we haven't found and identified but a fraction of the fauna currently in existence so how could we say for certain?

I believe, based on what we know, I will never see a live unicorn, nor am I likely to hear of the bones or fossils of a dead one. That's because there is no evidence of their existence. Give me verifiable evidence and I will believe anything.

You say you believe in the scientific method, but I think you just need to read about Russell's Teapot.

1

Here is an excellent response to Marcelo Gleiser's feelings about atheism by a scientist respected by scientists; which will likely be decried pejoratively as "scientism" by some.

[whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com]

Also, the pursuit of Templeton Prize does matter. It is specifically set up to lead the scientists vying for the big cash prize money to come to certain and specific conclusions with regards to their research.

1

The moment I see mention of the Templeton Foundation, I will turn to something else.

@TheMiddleWay Shame?

See the posts below by PontifexMarxist.

I first read the comments, expecting them to help me decide whether to click the link. Having read of the T. Fndn, I didn’t click.

Your argumentative posts below persuaded me to ignore further posts by you.

1

[journals.sagepub.com]

"The Foundation's organizational structure and the awarding of its prizes appears to be rife with cronyism."

1

I totally agree. I've always argued this.

1

An excellent article! 🙂

1

He is simply stating that it is ridiculous to think anyone knows everything about anything and I absolutely concur.

I usually refer to myself as an atheist, though I am technically agnostic. The term atheist is used for simplicity but really only means that I reject the notion of a sky daddy or similar ideas. It is just easier to explain and serves as sort of a short hand. I am quite happy to call myself an agnostic and quite comfortable acknowledging the incredible limitations of my, and humankind's, knowledge, and the likelihood that the limit is permanent (for how could we possibly know there is not more to know). IMHO, agnostic is the only real position to have. To declare absolute knowledge of anything is dishonest.

I am often surprised by the irrational close-mindedness of some atheists and the often vicious attacks they can make against anyone who is not in strict accord with their views.

I wonder if this article is upsetting more because the scientist received an award from the Templeton Foundation that it is about his statements.

And I wonder what the reaction would have been if the scientist was Einstein, instead of Gleiser? After all, what this guy is saying is pretty much what Einstein has said.

Saying that he is against atheism is not the same as saying that he believes in a god.

1

I have the utmost respect and admiration for Marcelo Gleiser, and that is based on his deep awareness and reverence for the dazzling, mysterious reality in which we find ourselves. I am on board with his views 100%.

All this argument about belief vs. disbelief entirely misses the point. The concept of belief/disbelief has no meaning if you don’t know anything. Gleiser puts it like this: “It’s a declaration [atheism]. But in science we don’t really do declarations. We say, “Okay, you can have a hypothesis, you have to have some evidence against or for that.” Gleiser clearly recognizes the limits of science, and he knows that in the face of the staggering implications of the mystery of existence belief and disbelief are not appropriate.

If you previously believed in old religious myths it makes perfect sense to say that you are now an atheist and do not believe those myths. But you have no basis for denying ultimate reality beyond the world of our superficial space/time/matter model of the senses. Because some people have wrongly described something, that does not mean the thing doesn’t exist.

Our very notion of existence is sham from the start, and that is science, not woo. It certainly seems presumptuous to me for us to be making claims about existence when we have no idea of who or what we ourselves are.

Must have something to do with conscious awareness, itself a profound mystery.

@TheMiddleWay I already admired Gleiser but after reading this article I am absolutely enthralled. He has a rare combination of deep awareness and insight, acute intelligence and courage, along with reverence and humility. He is a living embodiment of the spirit of science!

Thank you very much for this post MiddleWay.

"...belief and disbelief are inappropriate..."
Wow.
Your whole comment there put perfectly agnostics' problem with BOTH theism AND atheism: both are bogus belief systems. Neither is appropriate, even if men have failed, miserably, to capture the awe and mystery surrounding us.
Of course, atheists fail to "get it" and consider any criticism a malicious attack and respond violently in response. Like any "true believer" would.

1

I agree with you and Dr. Gleiser when you say atheism is inconsistent with the scientific method in one small sense because you can't confirm or falsify anything without evidence according to the scientific method. I will stipulate here that all religious statements held as natural facts, which are known to me, have been falsified by science except two. The two remaining inconclusive facts are as follows:

  1. The natural (vs intelligent) origin of the universe can neither be confirmed or falsified at this time.

  2. The concept that our current natural exitence has a serial (or parallel) counterpart can neither be confirmed or falsified at this time.

Therefore any belieif (or disbelief) regarding these subjects is unscientific. The correct scientific answer regarding these subjects is "I don't know at this time". With that said, I disagree with Dr. Gleiser's answer to question seven when he stated "This whole notion of finality and final ideas is, to me, just an attempt to turn science into a religious system, which is something I disagree with profoundly." I don't understand how he came to the conclusion that the scientific method has a "finality" mechanism. I understand the scientific method to be constructed with eternal curiosity. I'm also puzzled why he thinks curiosity is the sole basis for spirituality because he didn't qualify this statement with consilience or abductive reasoning.

Since you have declared that Dr. Gleiser thinks exactly like you, would you care to elaborate on his statements?

@K9Kohle789 The scientific community is quite aware that other species have self awareness, and has been aware of this for some time now. There are very simple tests that even a young toddler can perform (assuming they can master some basic motor skills and not be afraid of/over cuddly with the subject animal).

1

Very dependent on definitions. This guy speaks as if atheism and agnosticism are mutually exclusive. At the heart of it though, I agree with what he is saying even though his word usage differs from mine.

@TheMiddleWay Yes. This entire thread is full of people getting bent out of shape over the usage of words.

You can’t blame them though if their usage is in line with how it is described in most dictionaries. The article uses ‘atheist’ to mean someone that asserts there is no god. That’s fine and I agree with the conclusion if that is the case. Unfortunately without this clarification we are just wasting time arguing over labels.

@TheMiddleWay It is not merely about disagreement. His premise is that atheism is not scientific but for two reasons he is wrong. True, his definition of atheism is not a typical definition by an atheist but rather a theist definition. Atheists simply do not believe in God. They can also be agnostics. They can be uncertain about it.

But primarily he's not correct because he is not using the scientific method correctly. He has chosen to ignore that it is the burden of the believers to prove their premise. In the absence of made up stories atheism should be the only reasonable conclusion.

@CK-One Well said. I'm an agnostic leaning far towards atheism and I agree.
It's not the atheists or agnostics making claims of magical all powerful beings and it's their right to agree with it, or not, based entirely on the evidence, or lack thereof. The theist are the ones making the magical claims. If they want to be believed let them show proof, or not. And proof is not their faith nor words written in their "holy" book. Which most have never read anyway. Scientific proof.
My quick 2cts.

@TheMiddleWay I think you have it the wrong way around. I and others have a world view, then use the word in the dictionary that has matches that world view.

@TheMiddleWay No. Words are just labels. It’s the ideas that matter.

1

Atheism is just an answer to a question, & question is do you believe in a anthropomorphic personal God or gods. That's it atheism is not proclaiming that there are no gods it's just the answer to the question do you believe in an anthropomorphic magical personal God.
If the answer is yes you are theist if the answer is no you are atheist. That is it no magic no bullshit!
You say there is ar god

A God or Gods. All I ask is prove it. If you provide no reason to believe you,Then I have no reason to believe your assertion.

@TheMiddleWay nonsense! I have no reason to believe you have a million dollars. That's it.

@TheMiddleWay You can stick your de facto up your middle way...

@TheMiddleWay I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm saying I have no reason to believe you.

@TheMiddleWay no. I don't believe you is a declaration. So now I have to prove your status regarding the money. I see no reason to believe you is on you. If you keep saying you have a million dollars I might ask you to prove it. Or I might not care. That somebody makes a declaration...I have a million dollars, my dad owns a Lamborghini, there is a god... Doesn't mean I have to say yay or nay. I'll believe something when there's evidence. This really isn't that hard.

1

I couldn't agree with him more. I say it now, I've said it a hundred times in the past and I will continue to say it, I am an agnostic because it is inconsistent with science to declare to be an atheist. I cannot prove there is not a god. I cannot prove a negative. There is no evidence of a god but that doesn't mean there's not one and thus I am agnostic. I will say this, if there is a god, he is a prick!

1

Funny how a sensible comment about the scientific method espoused by many non-scientists is derided.

The reference in the title is about non-application of the scientific method that many commentators engage in when supporting atheism.

The physicist here is pointing out that no evidence doesn’t mean no existence, just that the hypothesis has not been proven one way or the other.

1

You people split hairs over fairy tale bullshit. this is useless.

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