This. And, read THEIR profiles. Don’t bring up sex til they do. It’s often an instant red flag.

@wrrider100 just post here what you're looking for in a woman and ask that interested women reply. bulletin was a poor choice.

They let us kiss them?

@BitFlipper My experience has been they LOVE to be kissed. Not only that, you meet some of the nicest people that way.

@mischl I don't want to meet people in jail!

@BitFlipper Uh oh, I can't advise you. I've never been there except for counseling time with prisoners.

I keep hearing this "friends first" thing and I call BS. I have never had a female friendship that has turned into a romance. It's frustrating and painful to be in that situation.

@BitFlipper if you keep hearing it, there must be some truth to it.. Just because it hasn't worked for you yet doesn't mean it's bs.. I've seen it happen frequently with my gfs...

@Cutiebeauty well it must be me then. I'm not falling for it any more.

@BitFlipper It does happen. I just started a romantic relationship with a man who has been my friend for 24 years. Him and his ex and me and my ex where the best of friends, our two families did all kinds of stuff together. We now find ourselves both single and decided to give it a try as lovers, been great so far,

@Mermaidfantasy I'm talking about what happens when I meet a woman in a dating situation, where both of us are available. The "friendzone" is a permanent status.

@BitFlipper Could be, or could start out as that. Do you make it clear that you are intersted in moving beyond friends right from the start? Like becomming friends is fine to start, to get to know each other but you are looking for more in the end?

@Mermaidfantasy That sounds silly coming from a sophisticated woman like you. If a woman isn't interested she's not interested.

I have actually expressed those feelings in the past and experienced some of the most humiliating rejections in my life. If I'm attracted to a woman and she isn't attracted to me, the best alternative is to keep my mouth shut. That way, at least I get to enjoy her company.

@BitFlipper I could imagine that as women get older they are not looking for so much for a sex partner as much as friends or companionship. Sorry you have had no luck in finding a full partner.

@Mermaidfantasy lol - if luck was involved some of it would be good luck. I don't know whether talking about it makes it better or worse.

I would prefer to amend the advice a bit. Starting as friends works if you want to end up as "just friends." But a man should make no bones about what he wants from the woman he pursues. Don't trick her into thinking you're "just friends" if you really want more than that. It's not fair to either of you. So if you don't want to be "just friends" with a woman, you have to indicate as much, and early.

BitFlipper is right about that.

The "friendzoning" that you're referring to, BitFlipper, is never the woman's fault. I want to be clear on that.

@BitFlipper So you’re expecting to go from zero to sexual intimacy with no friendship? If so, get on Tinder and find someone down for no-strings sex. Or pay for sex. Intimacy takes time, trust, caring, mutual interest, vulnerability. Those are qualities in good friendships.

@BitFlipper, @Mermaidfantasy Actually, many older women prefer to live alone and have regular, high-quality sex. You need to be clear on what you’re truly looking for and then communicate it. And as someone noted, if you are married, you’ll need to be upfront about whether you have an open marriage or just want an affair. Some women may be OK with an affair. Just do them and yourself the favor of honesty.

@UUNJ I don't think he's saying he wants zero to intimacy. He's just worried about being stuffed into the friend zone, and would like to know how not to end up there when what you want is something more. It's perfectly reasonable to want to pursue a woman romantically without having to "befriend" her in that sense, but I think the potential ambiguity of the term "friend" is the difference in this conversation. When I pursue a woman romantically, of course I do want to be her friend, but I don't want her to get the impression it's all I want. Men should not be unclear about what they really want. That's not fair to anyone, as it can and often does lead to a misunderstanding - and more broken hearts than are necessary.

@UUNJ you have totally misunderstood me. And in a way that's kind-of insulting.

I've been warned that the reality of my life is too depressing, so I'm choosing my words carefully.

Yes, friendships do take time, trust, caring, mutual interest, and vulnerability. Intimate relationships require those things too, but they also require attraction. And as my therapist keeps telling me: if a woman isn't interested she isn't interested, and we need to respect that.

@BitFlipper Your therapist is correct. Same is true for men. Have you ever asked why someone wasn’t interested? I have, and it was helpful. I learned that while I was answering the questions someone asked to get to know me, he felt I wasn’t expressing the same interest in him. So now I try to ask an equal number of questions when I’m getting to know someone. It takes time and questioning to suss out what it is we may be doing that isn’t working. You mentioned concern about being shamed, and that’s a big deal. Maybe you could use help finding the ideal places to meet women who would appreciate the very things others aren’t attracted to.

@BitFlipper you're getting feedback from three women here, all different ages and lifestyles, all pretty much giving the same advice, even @uunj, an expert in human sexuality, yet you resist and become defensive.. perhaps you are getting in your own way... ? It does seem like you've given up...