Welcome Alliegirl - I think you're echoing what the majority feel - I hope the Admin is watching.

Hello Alliegirl, That you for mentioning "respectful." I've always had a problem with people who think I should respect their beliefs - even if they are fundamentalists and represent everything I oppose. I don't think the Constitution says I have to respect anything (I haven't read it lately; I may be wrong). I have to TOLERATE their beliefs (as long as they are not truly evil, nazis, etc.). I will not respect beliefs that encompass racial bigotry and supporting a thug like trump.

I don't think the theists who want to join us are searching for truth - wouldn't they be calling themselves "agnostic" if they were? If they have questions, we can refer them to authors who have already anwered their questions - Dawkins, et. al.

@LIB75002 - I would go further : I certainly don't respect their beliefs, or even tolerate them - all I do is acknowledge them. End of.

@Agnostic1 - that's a great word. I'll probably start using it now instead of tolerate. Thank you

We actually need to be up against f2f with religious people all the time in order to refute their arguments and so them a more compassionate less negative way off living without having to preach or argue

Allie, would you "respect" the belief that the world was flat? And we can go on forever in the 'book of lies'. I have no respect for religious fools- or secular ones either.

@TheMiddleWay it's like the bullet kills people- but the gun has nothing to do with it. People should disrespect Trump's ideas- but Trump has nothing to do with the blather that comes out of his mouth. Is there more of your ideas? Ya, people in stone houses should not throw glasses.

@Diogenes I wouldn’t respect the belief, but I would try to be respectful to the person no matter how much of a “fool” I may think they are. You have you’re way of being, I have mine.

@Alliegirl Sometimes things get confusing on here; I was responding to the person above. If a person is leading a decent life- it is absolutely none of my business whether they believe in fairy tales or not. I agree with you 100%. And there are too many things in my own life that I wish I had the power to take back.

@AncientNight I stand corrected and agree.

Welcome Alliegirl! Keep on posting!

@Diogenes
How about, "the world is perceptually flat in a spherical way"?

You can respect a person’s right to believe what they will and respectfully disagree with them even if you don’t respect the particularl belief that person holds.

@Draco Fair enough! Nobody ever let a wolf among his sheep herd without a loaded gun on reserve, lol!! I welcome the Admins' scrutiny! Be well!

Alliegirl you make an excellent point ?

I find I can agree with anyone about 95 present of things we discuss upon. That 5 percent of disagreements is a bitch. When the Religious come you, like this site. You have a big advantage to educate them of your way of thinking. If you don't like bebates, just say no, if you don't want to.

Above, I mean, don't like debates

I agree with CatByrd 100%

But I am a "true believer"- I believe in reality- so obviously that negates religion! LOL

@Diogenes, i, on the other hand, do not have to believe in reality (or anything else, for that matter); i experience it sensually every single moment of this life. i feel for you.

@walklightly You "don't have to believe in reality"- and I "feel" for you!

I agree. Why would they want to be here. Unless to troll, or possibly they believe but are still conflicted in some way. Doesn’t agnostic actually mean that you aren’t sure? Atheism is more adamant that there is no god.

It seems like I may have written about this before, but I see no problem with refuting and putting up a good argument for our non-belief. Something I do find strange is that part of the profile choices are "open to meeting men/women". That seems to make this website a dating or place to hook up site. When anyone mentions something "dating" related, there is plenty of replies. I'd much rather read a thoughtful debate that defends atheism.

@SACatWalker Who's Hell, Which Hell, Where the hell is that Hell?

@SACatWalker ROTF!

Ah but, the good thing that comes from exposure to people who have opposing opinions/beliefs to your own, is that it provides an opportunity for growth and a re-examination of your own belief system, and knowing why you believe what you do.

@Melind
No agnostic means you believe in some of the history or stories being told by the bible but certainly not blinded by the light.

What did you mean by "hell"?

The term "agnostic" absolutely does not mean you necessarily believe in some of the history or stories in the bible. I've literally never heard it used that way, until now. In general use, it does usually refer to someone who isn't sure whether or not a god exists, whereas "atheist" tends to be used to refer to someone who is more sure of themselves. Those are bad definitions though, I think.

I strongly prefer the following definitions: (A)gnostic -- with/out knowledge (of god/s). A(theist) -- with/out (belief in) god/s. They're not mutually exclusive. Personally, I'd call myself an agnostic atheist most of the time; I don't hold a belief in god/s, but I'm not sure that none exist. A gnostic atheist would claim to know that no gods exist. An agnostic theist would claim a belief in god/s, but not knowledge, and a gnostic theist would claim to know that god/s exist. Yes, I think I've got that right.

@Graeme the definition of an agnostic, according to the dictionary, is "a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."

religion and spirituality to me is not an atheist room, but that is who runs that room. I quit, and happily never go there. Why don't you have a room for atheists and one for agnostics? They mean 2 different things and to me neither are spiritual.

what room do you claim as only atheistic?

This whole site is for us. Religious people have plenty of social networks of their own.

@Deb57 then why do you have a religion and spirituality room? that is not athisistic. The very name agnostics. com means those who believe or aren't sure they disbelieve but aren't sure. you need to change the community to atheists.com. The religion and spiritual room is misrepresented, Spirituality means you believe their is a higher power but not a dogmatic god. So you gve the community the wrong name and create a room no one can get along in. The definitions do not match atheists.

@BettyColeman Actually, agnosticism is a type of atheism. An atheist is someone who rejects the claim that any gods exist. An agnostic is someone who doubts or has not committed to a belief in any gods, which also denotes a lack of belief. Since atheists and agnostics find themselves in a minority in the world, and often experience anything from marginalization to outright execution for not conforming to the beliefs popular in a given part of the planet, religion and spirituality tend to be hot topics for us. You could call it a survival tool, perhaps.

@Deb57 And just what is 'Religion and Spirituality' as a room? not atheist or agnostic. I am telling you I spent time looking up definitions to some of your labels. If I am an atheist, I should not be a skeptic. Ah, you people want your cake and eat it too. What you say makes no logical sense. I read definitions for agnostics. They are NOT atheists. They don't know what is the truth.

@Deb57 I am not religious.

what a disgusting remark . I accept everyone as they are and I have nothing to preach except your belief is your own choice.

@BettyColeman Whatever. If you want to know what topics are discussed in the section called Religion and Spirituality, I suggest you take a look for yourself. I'm not the moderator. If you don't like my remarks, feel free not to read them. I'm not judgmental, and I don't enjoy associating with judgmental people. Please go pick on somebody else.

@Deb57 I was in it a long time. All in that room fight. I do not live my life. I try to fix problems humanity; I am not interested in ignorant, bullying abuse. I quit and do not miss the hypocrites in tat room. I am done for the night unless I do some posts

@Deb57 True theyt have their own rooms, but too many of them feel the uncontrollable urge to proselytize, because all of us atheist are going to hell and they have to save us.
even though we do not believe in any of it.
those types should be asked to leave.

@kanawah how can an atheist go to hell when he doesn't believe in one? Each individual creates their own reality. As that is so, one should quit allowing others to invade their space.

@BettyColeman I am an atheist and a humanist but I cannot abide religion because it oppresses and divides people. I also consider myself spiritual because i can be moved to tears by a piece of music or a wonderful experience or by simply closing my eyes and breathing in a beautiful rain forest. I am overwhelmed with awe at the very existence of the universe so please don't tell me I'm not spiritual. I find it in the connection I have with those I love including my dog and trees.

I concur.

Same.

I would not defend but point out flaws and atrocities in scripture. I am not a Christian! There are many believers and many with doubts and open to an honest discussion on the authenticity of their faith and the Bible. Let them ask, I have answers. Sorry I did not make my self clear.

The religious have a blocking system for turning you away at the pearly gates AND further for condemning you to absolute eternal fire. Why sink to their level?

@Mcflewster I don't mind having conversations with believers. I won't put up with being harrassed by someone who wants to convert me, neither here nor in real life. It's the latter type I was referring to in my comment, and the consensus seems to be that that is the type who would probably join this site.

@bingst Fine but why do you get harassed. Are they winning?

NB this is not a battle but is concerned with our future and how soon we get to where you want to be

I think your right. I have a hunch that a religious person who joins this sight would be pretty sure about his/her position, and probably would be a nuisance.

@KentTorch "many Christians with doubts", I don't think so; that would take a little thought. The ones that do terminate religion, many are very angry that they have been coned so badly; that everything was there in plain site, and for some reason they didn't pay attention to the obvious.

That makes me do a double take. Your choice of vernacular.
As follows "They reject that agnostics and atheists are just as steadfast in their beliefs as they are in their Christian belief."

Like telling me you have a fying car, SAY WHAT?!

Atheism has no beliefs, it is a NON thing. By adopting Atheism one does not gain anything, especially some set of beliefs, they perhaps shed one they did hold, a theistic set.
Agnosticism is addressing an entirely different question, one about esoteric, revealed knowledge of some God orother.

SO how can any Atheist be steadfast in something which has no beliefs to be steadfats in?

Rather, your meaning is you are NOT convinced their religious tales are true and valid, you are NOT sold. By stating that you are just as steadfast in your belief in atheism, you have turned Atheism into another belief system, which is precisely what many fundamentalist sects argue that it is, or want it to be.
Then they can argue against that.

When you do not use such terminology they are truly stuck with the impossible task of trying to prove what they do believe, which cannot be done.
That effort makes them realize (sometimes), that it cannot be done, which makes folks think "Why do I believe this?"

@Leutrelle while I AM sure in my beliefs, I also realize that what I personally believe is not acceptable here and therefore, counter-productive to discuss. What is most interesting to ME for being here is hear from all of you your stories and what unkindness, hypocrisy and inappropriate comments that Christians have hurled at you that have deeply hurt.

In order to build a bridge, I feel I must hear the whole stinkin' truth. After all, I may have said and done the same things without realizing it, and I want to stop doing it, whatever it is.

I do respect the valid misgivings many of you have, however, and realize that centuries of mistrust won't be erased for a long time. If I step on toes, just let me know and you'll have my sincerest apology

Rest assured, I'm also NOT someone trying to write a book, either.I'm only here to listen and learn how to be a little more open-minded, more tolerant, and more sensitive to others. Peace to all on your journeys.

i agree - it's pretty much my reasoning too: how can i expect a delusionist to discuss anything rationally?

@walklightly a baptist with 13 children invaded our Atheist group in Iowa 7 years ago and I played along with him for quite a while. ...nothing over 4 years ever fazed him. ....all the insanity in his bible would not shake his crucifixion thirst for grape juice&crackers on Sundays. ...not a bit of remorse threatening 13 children or me with eternal fire to my flesh nor the idiotic bribe fraud of heaven allegations. .....in his defense he was usually stone silent when I asked him direct yet leading questions as indicated SUPRA. ...never once did he express rage or resentment towards my American Atheist leadership in Iowa or South Carolina. ...talking to him is like talking to a pedophile in prison who won't give up his desire to rape girls QUID PRO QUO for parole. ....no surprise given he sired 13 kids no spontaneous abortions with the same woman....what WAS SURPRISING after the wife divorced him, an Atheist woman took him to bed frequently. ...thinking about those 2 always makes me limp

@GreenAtheist, that's the thing: i am not interested in religion. full stop. i'd never allow a delusionist to poison my immediate energy field in any way.

@Beach_slim, what are you trying to convey?

@Beach_slim, i'm talking about believers being rational about their imaginary friend - which obviously is an oxymoron.
btw, i claim nothing; i just state from my personal experience. no need - & no way! - to pick that apart.

@Beach_slim, i said:"how can i expect a delusionist to discuss anything rationally?", & i stand behind it. but hey, delude yourself, picking random words out of context, rejoicing in the attempt of finding fault in me. i'm plenty flawed, i can tell you that much. enjoy.

@Beach_slim what do you base that statement on?

Religion is to have a belief in some form or Organized Religion. My Belief is not to believe and there are followers of this Organization who are in agreement with this. I choose to not believe and am in support of all who follow that belief.

@okiestache I agree. Atheism is not a religion by the definition of an atheist. It is a belief system for me and I honor that. Religion is dogmatic.

@BettyColeman Atheism: I believe to not believe. Sholom or Shalom is a greeting of Peace for which every country has one special statement that is acceptable to all regardless of race, color or creed. Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays made it big for the Southern Christian Leadership. Lets Flip the Bird, give the Optical Salute or shuck out the Right Hand at a Rally which is not religious but makes a moment recognizable. Kneeling instead of standing is in no way disrespectful and has been recognized for eons. centuries, customs, formal ceremonies, as a totally acceptable venue of respect until?

@Nevermind345 i do not want to get into this. I am aware of this, but prefer to it as a personal choice, not to be shoved down any human's throat.

@okiestache I am for all of humanity and I don't give a rat's ass what you want you to believe. Do you not get that. You will NEVER get everyone on this earth to be all atheists. I am only concerned with humanity's quality of life, I do not want to tell them how to live.

@BettyColeman But doesn't it concern you the damage that religion has done and continues to do through out the world. We could talk about the crusades, the inquisition, missionaries who tried their best to destroy local culture, the oppression and subjugation of women. The method to control the masses by ' accepting their lot in life because it is gods will'. And frankly if I belonged to a tennis club with as much pedophilia as the christian churches have been accused of, I would distance myself from that club pretty damn quick. Accepting what people believe is a cop out. They should be challenged. And we need to fight to keep separation of church and state. So maintain the rage!

Take this as a "like" to your comment, silvereyes. (^.^)

I see your point, but in many ways when places become "echo chambers" they can defeat the purpose, especially if that is one of free thinking.

I understand what you're saying, PNEawf, but I've seen a lot of variations of freethinking here so I'm not sure we'd be too monotone. But one thing that seems to be uniform across the board is an unwillingness to date a religious person, so maybe it should be polled? (Or maybe it was, I'll have to go look.)

@Lauren Has it been? I know the question atleast has been asked. I seem to be among the minority lol if thats the case.

@Neraven I believe the site is still open to religious, but it may be open for discussion. But I'll let you know if I find out otherwise.

I agree that there are some here, @Lonely, but I still stand by my position. This is a dating site, and a lot of people are looking for a haven where they don't have to defend their beliefs the way they do on countless believer dating sites - this is, after all, our only dating site. I think many nonbelievers here gain the strength they need to take up the challenge in their real lives, but their activism should not be mandatory to their efforts to meet a mate.

religion IS belief in a superhuman power, so how can it be separated from god (=superhuman power)?

@walklightly i know a lot of people who believe in a "higher power" or "higher authority" or whatever, who can't stand religions. Not everyone thinks "God" is some cloud man in the sky doling out eternal nastiness. I read a series of books some years back, called Conversations With God, it was actually a great read, and not at all representative of the God of religion. And in fact, in those books, "God" referred to religion as an insane set of rules designed to try to make sense of an insane God.
I've actually come to the conclusion that "God" is actually just "energy.

@Taijiguy, is this conversation about energy or about an imaginary friend? because, to be frank with you, i am quite interested in the topic of energy, but utterly flabbergasted, if not to say snickering hysterically, at the idea of non-recognition of the difference between sensation & belief. i do sense energy with my physical body, no doubt about it, & no belief required. in an entity called "god" on the other hand i have to believe, because it does not exist, can not be experienced on any level of my real being. now you ask me to respect a "god" that appears in a book & is actually just energy, telling the reader what an asshole another "god" is. what a pompous jerk! i rest my case.

@walklightly i don't think you read my comment carefully.
First, the comment was focused on the separation of religion from a belief in a "God". I know many people who do in fact believe in a God, (higher power) but have nothing but disdain for religion. There's plenty of them in 12 step groups around the world.
Regarding the books, the God speaking in those books, again, was critical of religion, not of the God the religions represent. (being him/her self) because those religions have distorted "God" into something it isn't.
The energy comment is my interpretation of what is really being referenced with the name "God". If you consider the main components of descriptions of what "God" is, it makes perfect sense. All places at all times, is the creator of everything, etc. I could go even deeper, but it gets a little weird when you throw in nanotechnology and quantum physics.

@Taijiguy, i did read your comment as carefully as only a non-manipulated self-thinking person can. you equate "god" with energy, which makes no sense to me at all. i have a certain power over energy, being a living, breathing being. the idea of "god" is that of a superhuman power, which makes me dependent on its whim. believing in a "god", i have created a religion; that is actually what religion means. separating the idea of "god" from religion is like denying the fact that if i recognize breathing in a being it belongs in the realm of the living. the book you keep referring to seems to be written by a confused (or sadistic) person, & as for your statement about "many people...believe in a god" & the example of the 12-step groups, well, it just shows me once more, how many truly deluded, lost souls this beautiful planet of ours carries. oh, & by all means, let's get weird. i'm all for it.

@walklightly that idea of "God" that you describe only exists because you've been told that's what he/she/it is. I'll believe you're actually a non-manipulated free thinker as soon as you let go of that concept. My theory of God makes no sense because you adhere to what you've been told God is. I don't. I believe in energy, I believe in the universe, and I believe in all the universe holds for us.
When God of the Bible was asked who he was, do you know what "he" said?
.
And as for the lost and deluded souls, I know and love many of them. My dad being one, who was an alcoholic for most of his life until he stepped into an aa meeting. His belief in a power greater than himself helped him get sober. You may believe that he's delusional, but those people get help from their delusions.

@Taijiguy I have zero problem with a believer who can admit that their beliefs are just unsubstantiatable personal preferences / experiences and non-binding on anyone but themselves. But in my experience, that has happened on sites open to theists, possibly two or three times in several years of participation. If you are able to agree with the above statement then you're a rarity. My guess though is that you are more like some of the more coherent "roll your own" professedly areligious types the way you say that if we just understood god correctly like you do rather than listen to all the incorrect god-information not sourced from you, that it would start making sense. There's a guy on c-d who is a retired academic with a very detailed manifesto about his very one-off god-beliefs and he'll openly tell you you're just dense if you find his beliefs make no sense. He's as derisive of fundamentalists as any atheist is, yet ... like most believers, he thinks he's found the truth and it's self-evident to anyone with an open mind. Not all liberal / atypical believers have epistemological humility or hold their faith loosely. In fact, very few actually do.

@mordant your guess would be wrong. I don't really concern myself with what others believe. I'll share my ideas, feel free to take it or leave it.: -)

A noble sentiment, but....when was the last time you’ve known a theist to listen to anything but their own white noise?

@Azatheist I would be sure to lose my patience in a one way argument but I can always turn them off here when I get bored...

@blzjz good point.

THE USA welcomes all religions, belief systems, and races.

@okiestache I am a protector of humanity. That is all that is required. I will try to save the human race, not only humans that believe a certain way or are a certain color. Whether you realize it or not, due to the climate change and pollution of the planet, humans are an endangered species.

@okiestache the group religion and spirituality is used by atheists to torment anyone who is not atheist. I quit that group because of what goes on in there. Spirituality means you believe in a higher power. That is NOT atheist. Religion means you believe dogmatically in that fake man in the sky. Why would atheists have a room like that, and have agnostics.com as the name of their community. Agnostics just aren't sure there is or isn't a god. I have looked up the definitions so I knew.

I’m trolling and I want everyone to know it

@BornAgnostic, sounds like a personal problem! ?

@Barnie2years and you replied

@BornAgnostic nothing wrong with being a troll. It's comfy under this bridge just waiting for those goats to come trip-trapping across!

@Geoffrey51 I’m still pissed off

trolling is a fishing term, not the mythical creature.

and what if aetheists aren't respectful?

Trouble is the theists tend to preach only to the converted and do not engage intellectually. Try a different approach??

I think we should have filters when searching for members, as well as filters to hide posts / comments from religious participants. Sorry, I have too many encounters with jeebus folks in real life and social media. If this place gets overrun by simpleton trolls.. It would not be good

different issue. it's deflection, @SamL.

@walklightly what is deflection?

@SamL, it means a "change of direction". with your question you open a whole new can of worms, instead of staying with the issue, which is: do agnostics want to have believers amongst them here?

Maybe, just maybe, from all of the madness of almost all religious people ... they might just make a statement that would give a glimmer of consideration. And isn't that why we are here? To be open enough to discover the truth for ourselves?

I agree. I'm new too but I also think it's going to be pretty hard to actively keep them out. I suppose unless they are causing a problem their really isn't a need to bother over it.

garlon999: No, I'm here to meet non-religious people so I don't have to have those damned discussions!

It bears pointing out that there is no universally accepted definition of "religion", and there are many people who consider themselves religious who do not believe in gods, nor in anything supernatural. Those folks--like me--belong here as much as anyone else.

@catdogartlove me too I really can’t even tolerate that BS, even driving past a church pisses me off, knowing all the fools inside are sucked in, brainwashed and giving their hard earned money to this bullshit. There is so much wrong with all of it!

@Funeralgirl Glad I'm not the only one who feels like that, I really do resent churches putting up 15 foot posters in garish colours announcing to the world that basically conforming to idiocy and prejudice is somehow a good thing.
I particularly hate having to explain to my kids why some building have huge frightening statues of a half naked bleeding dying man outside of them.

I sorta agree with ya, but I think there's enough room for everyonel, After all, by them simply being here gives you a chance to help change their worldview. Equal opportunity. If you don't want a debate, move on to something else. That's easy enough. Just say'n!

i never realized what I was getting into. I thought it was a place that was liberal and realized that a believe system is the personal right of all people/ Boy was I shocked.WHAT YOU PROCLAIM this community is so DIFFERENT THAT YOU WANT IT TO BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE COMMUNITY DEFINED DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU WANTED IT TO BE.

@AntaresRose Would you please go back over that statement with proper caps and punctuation so I can understand what you are trying to say? In case it's meaningful or relevant?

@ForTheBirds My prior post means just what it says. A belief system is personal choice guaranteed by our Constitution Just as Atheists are accepted as non believers, in America we are expected to co-exist and honor all personal beliefs. No human on this earth has the freedom to tell another how they should believe, or what they can say, what gender they choose to marry. All are personal rights and choices of humanity. Being part of humanity gets you accepted with me. That is my only requirement. That is America's requirement. Even in this group, their are continual slurs about any belief that is not Atheist. However, all atheists will be the first to say they are not racist or bigoted. I have been persecuted, stalked, and left groups over continual harassment. i respect a human's right to be themselves above personal choices that cause upheaval in this agnostic community. Essentially many members that consider Atheism as the only way, deny others their government given right. I back this up with the reality that all belief or non belief systems cannot be scientifically proved or disproved. As fa as i am concerned, some don't practice what they state. If your choice is atheism, that is your right as a human living in America. If you are something other then atheist, neither is of concern to me. I am no one's judge and jury. As long as you leave me alone, I will return the same. As an activist for the human race, I may not agree with your choices, but I honor and respect your right to exist and live as what makes you happy. I do not think we have the right to ban anyone regardless of their personal choices. As an activist for humanity, I say leave all personal choices that we disagree accepted as members. If you do not like them, block them, don't go to their groups, but let them have their choices. I left rooms and blocked people over hard nosed hatred for humans because their choices are different. It is not the way America exists. I have had Atheists tell me the whole world will be all Atheist someday. Humans have brains and there is much diversity in how they all live their lives. That will never change. Humans will always differ. Atheists are a minority just as Christians beliefs. There are probably more Muslims in the world population. I am willing to give any human their rights to choose, but not to be thrown out or bullied because they don't believe the same as me. Should we boil all Christians in oil as Rome did to entertain at one time? Shouldn't we have evolved to freedom of choice? This is an old post to be called on. Most know my philosophy. I do not know who you are, but what I said in my prior comment was easy to understand and this is more harassment. i don't even post or comment in this group because of this bullying. i have not nor do i intend to spend my life convincing someone my way is the only way. I do not debate and I do not bully.

@ForTheBirds I read your BIO. It is filled with hate. You seem to think you have been singled out and punished. My life was worse than yours. i had not a decent childhood or marriage. I have been abused. i blame no one but myself. i do not hold hatred because hatred causes severe illnesses. No wonder you have been sick so much. I would advise you to accept only positive energy. Negative energy drains the body. I do nightly meditations to remove negativity. I would advise you to also. I also have struggled with chronic depression my whole life. I am 71 years old and I have learned to get on with it and cope.

@AntaresRose OH FER SHIT'S SAKE. A request for clarification is not an attack. A little thin skinned, are you? My bio is filled with hate? Nope. Seems like you are, though. Maybe a 2 week meditative retreat is in order.

@ForTheBirds listen freedompath fuck off.

@ForTheBirds I owe you nothing. you need to take care of you. now prepare to vanish. you are contacting me over an old post from a group I quit long ago. You are harassing. No one not a man nor a god can intimidate me. You got that? i got myself in a great space.. You are jealous. you are about to get blocked.

i can't see anything wrong in the question "how do you feel about believers joining?", apart from the fact that a question, any question in itself can not be wrong.
i prefer to trust in my senses, my intelligence & nature, & i say TRUST, not believe. i am a non-believer par excellence, & willing to categorize myself for the sake of this site as an atheist.

@walklightly thank you for your feedback ... I consider myself a true believer, an atheist believer par excellence ... I just don't believe in gods, angels, demons and consorts ... I believe in nature whose existence I am unwilling to deny .. But then I must admit I don't believe in nations and states etc. and they do exists. So this is a different type of disbelief, should probably be non-belief

I shall not concede that my belief in nature and the laws thereof as far as I can fathom them are of any lesser nature than the beliefs of those who need spiritual crutches, I.e. Religions churches, robes and pews.

@PontifexMarximus, what you call belief in nature is plainly the observation & acknowledgment of nature's power.
in my view knowledge renders belief redundant. belief is only required if evidence is lacking.

@walklightly I am still pretty ambivalent whe it comes to the strict differentiation between belief and the observations. When I look at the cloud free night sky I enjoy the view but don't really understand the details of what I am looking at. I have only very vague notions of escape velocities, black holes, quazars ... I just enjoy it. I often this that there could be other laws of physic at work in a black hole. I classify my incomplete knowledge and inability to comprehend as "belief". I read in absolute awe about people who understand this and can talk about this with great confidence.

@LetzGetReal Linguistic background is the key. I was exposed to German as my primary language. Usually to questions that might be answered in English with I think German employs "glauben which means both believe and faith. The German equivalent for 'pagan is "Heide" which induce all who do not believe in any divinity.
I would even argue that scientist believe in nature which leads them to formulate hypotheses and ultimate the experiments that confirm the initial speculative assumptions or not.
If they just loved nature ... Why investigate? I think/believe that they are driven by the belief that they can find out.

Thank you for clarifying that you are ELS (English as Second Language) as this may explains why your claim warrants a rather profound face-palm. I am guessing (hoping) you are simply suffering from a subtle linguistics interpretation error.

Let's define a few words so you can understand how your statement ranks soundly in the whelm of nonsensical.

Faith by definition is belief without evidence.

As all supernatural claims, the foundation of religion, can not be demonstrated, religions peddling the supernatural are based on faith.

In the domain of the faithful, "revealed Truth" usually noted as "truth" is defined as knowledge obtained by a divine awareness given to them by their creator or in other words, whatever a theists thinks his god wants him to know or believe based on faith (again, belief without evidence) is "truth".

I am guessing you may not realize it is widely accepted (especially among the faithful) that your term "true believers" is equivalent in meaning to "Faith Based believers"

With this foundation let's examine your assertions:

"Atheist are the true believers."

No. Atheist means one who does not find sufficient evidence to support the positive god claim. There is no positive "belief" claim associated with an atheist. Let me give you a simple example. Off is not a television channel, Not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

when we replace a few words in your assertion with the meanings of those words we are left with:
Those who do not accept faith (belief without evidence) in the positive assertion of a god are the ones who accept faith (belief without evidence).

"Faithless are those who seek refuge in religious"

No. Faithful seek refuge in religion as religion is founded on faith. Your claim is equivalent to stating people who do not swim seek refuge in deep swimming pools.

"An atheist's faith in life and nature is far more nuanced and subtle."

No. I am an atheist. I do not base my life on faith (belief without evidence) assertions. I will follow the evidence regardless of whether or not I wish something to be true.

"Welcome!!!"

No! For what? Me having to wast my time pointing out how logically offensive I found you flawed assertion.

@Lonely, if someone feels offended by your opinion, e.g. "the most stupid song", it certainly is that person who has issues with respect of other opinions. tell them that - &, please, stay a while. we want outspoken people here

@Lonely I just block those people. I'm not here to argue with theists, or to take abuse or disrespect from anyone. I've probably blocked 15 people; some just because they annoy me. I don't give a f*** what they have to say.

@Lonely Stay! We need a diversity of opinions.

Do you really think the members of this site are that parochial and have persecutive mindsets? Yes, the religious with open minds could benefit from the posts and comments here; but, are you interested in being preached to, or in arguing with any of them? I'm not, not in the least bit.

Hi Condor perhaps viewpoints from other perspectives are useful. Maybe there is some refined content that can be gleaned from argument and intelligent discourse. If we are confident in our personal worldview preaching or apolgetics is not to be concerned about.

@Geoffrey51, if talking to a believer as opposed to an evidentialist i mostly just want to keep yawning - it's so boring & irrelevant what people, who don't care to differentiate between fact & fiction, have to contribute to any conversation. i have the most enlightening, inspiring & fun discourses with other realists here, whereas the few run-ins i had with believers all turned out to be stifling & angry - which isn't what i came here for.

@LetzGetReal ... and of course we can resort to the pitchforks and torches. Good point?

@LetzGetReal .... Ah, metaphor is over- rated for me ?

wouldn't it be just magical if humankind could acknowledge the diversity in our unity? we may all be individuals, but also born the exact same way.

I don't think you should go. I think your reasoning for joining is admirable and I wish everyone had a mind as open as yours.
Your post reminded me of my own childhood. As a very young girl, I met many other children from different backgrounds and we all just played together. There was no judgment. We asked each other lots of silly kid questions about our differences, but none were meant to provoke. We were kids and learning about the world together. We were all friends and all of our parents encouraged us and supported each other.
I don't believe in God, but I believe in your right to believe.
Building bridges is a far more useful thing to do rather than blowing them up.

@walklightly it certainly would!

"You could say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

@Lewellyn3, "imagine", the first song i ever dared singing solo on stage

I'm glad you're here. The attitude you bring with you is welcome. It is the preaching and criticism and finger-pointing by theists we don't want, and you're not doing any of that.

Very good story. You appear to be representative of the theists on this site that are not an insidious blight on reason so I (and I would bet the vast majority of us in these pages) have no problem sharing this space with you.

Your story of the preacher telling ". . . So he's in hell now. . ." is one of many reasons I don't wish to share these pages with that (not you) ilk. I could fill a page with similar incidents of Catholic preachers and other religious god fearing people inflicting much fear and suffering on (the most common) devout Catholics that were divorced and married again without paying the church for a full annulment. I know of many theists that died in absolute fear of hell as their preacher and congregation have convinced them they are sinful and will burn in hell forever for not paying the church it's due homage.

Some theists on these pages attack reason and truth promoting their superstitious faith (belief without evidence) based nonsense over fact (supported by evidence). I've run across theists that "hate science" and have stated, "well, you will suffer because of your science" Those "believers/theists" are the ones I have issues with as they evoke in me a great deal of pity for their damaged reasoning ability (unable to accept reality over superstition). This profoundly diminishes any optimism I have for a positive (fact based decision for best outcome) future for our society.

Hope you find this a beneficial place.

The militant atheists are just as bad but they are what they are.

@GipsyOfNewSpain Militant anything is bad if you have a different viewpoint.

@DoctoralZombie Even with the same point of view... I just don't see the point of going around "badmouthing god, jesus, pope, religion, church, muhamed, islam, etc, etc, etc" on a 24/7 basis. My son once told me he couldn't understand how I did 20 years in the Military and I was the most anti military he knew. I simply told him... "It was My Job... Not My Life". So I was able to walk away upon retirement and enjoy life after without suffering the whidrawl that many ex military suffer once retirement comes. I didn't hangout on military bases after active duty. Did worked in one as a contractor. Did not visited a VA Hospital in 16 years... No Regrets of my time. I will do it again. Had a great time. But I am not Militant other than acknowledging that Life is for the Living and we most Live it Up. Enjoy Your TIme on Earth. Live Fully and Hearty. If you feel it is your call to be militant about anything do not stop from following your heart others may had a different point of view. But you already know that, Thanks.

@GipsyOfNewSpain, militant atheists accepted on agnostic.com, militant believers not invited, not welcome, not accepted here. simple.

@walklightly Okay.

militant theist "GAYS WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER, THEY SHOULD BE KILLED, NO RIGHTS AT ALL" at the top of their lungs.

militant atheist "NO, YOU'RE WRONG, BECAUSE OF YOUR SUPERSTITION".

yeah, just as bad....

@HereticSin They can go join alterboysareyummy.com and fullquiverloves9yearoldgirls.org and leave me alone. I am not required to respect bad ideas. You however are free to if you like.

@TheTruthIsTrue If it's an imaginary cliff that only you can see, then yeah, I'd prefer not hearing about it.

@Deb57 That answer is golden!

@TheTruthIsTrue I think she'd like some proof of the cliff's existence before taking your word for it...

@TheTruthIsTrue, I would be annoyed by your insistence that there is a cliff, when I can see that there is not. "Warning" people of danger that you cannot prove exists is not, by any stretch, a noble act.

There's a Delete Button??
I thought there was a 'block' button too, but I can't find it now.
Hmmm

@scurry If you have your Alert function set up ( the bell icon) to get your responses, then you can delete them.

@Spinliesel Ah yes - That I can do. Thanks

@scurry scroll down to their chart with levels & labels and the block button their has red letters

@GreenAtheist thanks.

i'm actually not interested in winning anything here; i joined the community for intelligent conversation about mutual interests, coming from gazillions of different view points. i am all for inclusive, as long as this includes respect & acceptance of personal boundaries. the few believers i have encountered to date were of the obnoxiously preaching kind, pushing their agenda regardless of the other - they didn't last long.

@walklightly Agreed - With "Winning" I mean win over someones mind, or win a discussion.

@Joerg, i think i understood you just fine. my point is that i didn't come here to "win over" anyone's mind - or a discussion. i came to learn about the fascinating kaleidoscope of human vantage points: where others are coming from, without needing to change the opinion they might have developed from that vantage point. to simplify it: the student versus the preacher.

@Joerg Why do you want to win over someone's mind. In my opinion you would be proselytizing your ideas to another person in order to convert them. I see no difference between your activist ideas compared to a proselytizing theist. Are you an Anti-theist? Do you feel compelled to attack their faith and belief?

Harsh, I agree with the first part, but I have met some lovely theists who are tolerant of atheists and are interested and interesting. I don’t want them on this site as I came here to run away from belivers, but I wouldn’t mock or ridicule one.

@Livia I feel dirty every time I am forced to deal with a believer pretending faux innocent belief/faith....I joined agnostic dot com for dating/courtship with an Atheist woman & getting news 1st hand from Atheists fighting theocracy where ever they may be victim of it.....there can be no justification or rationalizing away all the genocide, rape, murder of scientists and sexual mutilation of children by religions....believers who show zero remorse for their own religious heritage DO NOT BELONG HERE period

@GreenAtheist that’s the way I feel about the military and cops.

@Livia I'm a US Navy Vet never denying my resistance to the illegal invasion of Vietnam and Senator McCain was a war criminal shot down during his bombing of North Vietnamese cities....cops shoot people at will telling lies about their murders after they claim self defense from unarmed victims they shoot to death.....but more cops remain silent if not actively aiding the cover up of murderous cops....we need to demand justice and jailing all criminals in government from top to bottom

@GreenAtheist That is the best answer I ever have had. I don’t have problems with soldiers- I have a problem with the way that their young lives and sacrifice is exploited, and the way they are treated post war. No support, no money, nothing. They are taken into illegal and unjustified wars and then traumatized, wounded for life, or dead.

With cops it’s personal- they beat a member of my family to death with their bare fists. They covered it up and we lost the case we brought against the police. As per usual in such cases.

@Livia it is true most of us vets are denied compensation for the traumatic brain injuries of conductive hearing loss and tinnitus.... war is a fucking loud harmful activity not to mention the poison of Agent Orange that took one of my brother's legs and murdered millions of people billions of trees

You talk like Pinnochio is real ...there is no such thing as a christ and the sooner we all stay on that page the sooner doctors won't be murdered for being gynecologists and liars replacing biology teachers in public schools

It's not about converting you enabler our Atheism is about compassion for living victims and preventing religious murders over 6 million per year of women dying denied life saving abortions or deadly disease preventing condoms....take your dialogue error to the World Health Organization and spew that crap there where doctors are burying more people than curing syphilis

Encouraging delusions is what you are saying drinking blood and eating skin makes you immortal making life disposable and heaven bribes acceptable hell threats the enforcement of faux ethics

"christ's teachings": LMAO!

@GreenAtheist What the fuck? You talk like all "believers" are identical and follow the same biased doctrine. Perhaps you should be a little more accepting of others like you want others to be accepting of you. I thought atheists were open minded.

@Wildflower I am married to a believer and embrace my neighbors with kindness and tolerance....here inside agnostic dot com many of us have been greatly harmed by religion especially inside our open minds....you falsely assume we should be open to forever burning in hell for our repudiation of faith....and you conform to the false xian definition of Atheism and Atheist ...there are zero believers out there telling the violent misogynistic genocidal truth about religious books ....it's your mind appears to be closed to such millennia of death and injustice

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Yet, I've seen some responses belittling others and literally stating this is how it is which in my opinion doesn't leave any room at all for discourse. Responses evoking discourse are phrased in a way that promotes discussion not shuts it down.

One of the issues many atheists have with the religious is that many religious positions begin at a point that few atheists can respect. Opinions that are homophobic, misogynistic, racist, etc and respecting that is wrong. People can hold any opinion they want but not all opinions are worthy of respect.

Does that apply to the people as well? Are they worthy of disrespect because you don't respect their opinion?