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The choices this time are so depressing, I might just sit this one out. 🙄🍷

bigpawbullets 9 Aug 29
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6

Level 7

Hi:

Here is the text of the oath of office:

[constitution.congress.gov]
" do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Although it is a bit different than other job and hiring situations, I think it's sometimes useful to think of the Presidency as a job, the President as an employee, and all people eligible to vote as sitting on a hiring committee. You and I and the other people here are on that committee and we are debating the question of what job candidates we have before us.

When I look at it through that lens, what I want to say to you, and to the other committee members, is that we have a present employee who, as many of us feared, has done an enormous amount of destruction to the Constitution under guise of protecting it. He has done little better, in my view, than waking up each day and treating the Constitution as toilet paper. It has been a rather extreme case of letting the fox in the hen house (in this case the hens are the constitution) and trusting the fox to protect the Constitution for four years.

So, here we are now, and there is no valid grounds for debate, in my view. As long as the main opposing candidate is not-completely-horrible in terms of their ability and commitment to preserve protect and defend the constitution, then anyone who wants to see the country and its constitution survive must vote for that opposing candidate. It is not at all a vote "for" all of the qualities of that opposing candidate, and someone who votes for them doesn't need to own everything or even much at all that opposing candidate does for four years, but it is imperative to vote for that candidate. I see those voting for the Constitution-annihilating person in office as wanting to see my country dead, and that is not that much different from how I see people who in this election vote for a 3rd party candidate or who don't vote at all. To be sure, for many of those people, their judgment is either clouded or their mind is in some way not that good, or both, but I am past the point of cutting my fellow committee members that much slack. This is not a situation where facile equivalencies are appropriate. No, the opposition candidate is not "just as bad as, or worse than" the person in office. They are not within 3 parsecs of dreaming of being as bad as the person in office.

A few more notes:

  • the problem is not just the person in office, nor just the blackmailed awful people in the Senate and House who voted to keep him in office. The problem, in my view, is the dozens of millions of committee members who have grown mediocre and soft in their thinking, judgment and moral fiber and who have supported those congresspeople and President. Could those dozens of millions of people possibly think that they are defending anything resembling freedom or the Constitution or business or their right to free speech, or to belief? Many of them, I fear, do actually think that. That is - many of them are actually that intellectually bankrupt. So, we may be doomed no matter what happens.... if that many committee members are that far gone, but I think we have to make this one last try to keep (and repair) the constitution and the country.

  • If we do somehow survive this President and the Pandemic and all the other challenges we've got with our constitution repaired and intact, including the intellectual bankruptcy among so many (which I think is closer to the root cause of some issues we are facing), then perhaps it would need to be nominated as one of the great achievements of any country in recorded human history. something for those of us in the US to be proud of, if we can pull it off.

  • It should be kept in mind that we are in the middle of a Pandemic.... the illness is diabolically contagious and, once contracted, is particularly dangerous to older people. It is possible that the opposition candidate will fall ill or worse prior to the actual election day. If that happens, we (those of us who still have some decent judgment, along with the party of the opposition candidate) must all think this through and thoroughly. If the opposition candidate is ill but can still run, then we must support them. If they are dead or unable to continue then we must unite behind a coherent game plan from the opposition party. There must be a credible statement of who the replacements would be on the ticket, if absolutely needed, and what the reasoning is, and it must be very defensible. We could use some comments here in this discussion forum if there is some sort of best practices protocol for such a scenario.

We voters must not allow, for one instant, the inevitable attacks on the ticket to sway our votes. We are already dealing with a President who is so disgusting and dishonorable that he has all but promised to try to carry out a coup instead of leaving office. He must, if possible, be so soundly defeated in the voting (no matter the names on the opposition ticket, and despite the inevitable impact of corrupt aspects of the voting system) that when he is removed from the White House (by force if needed) that there is little argument that it was the right and legal thing to do. This absolutely cannot hinge on whether an old man gets sick while he is running for the Presidency. We must be clear, in using good judgment as voters, that we will unite behind any decent main opposition candidate that is on the ballot when we cast our vote. Period. This is an emergency situation, and we voters would do well to act like we understand that, and communicate with each other (while we are still allowed).

kmaz Level 7 Aug 29, 2020
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Goddamn, that was VERY WELL STATED, and I agree with EVERY word! This is no time to be wishy washy about politics and thinking "I may just sit this one out!" We need EVERY person to vote Biden-Harris, or in 4 years, we may not have an election, or a Constitution, or a DEP, or national parks without oil rigs! Vote, motherfuckers, vote!

Voltaire said it this way: the perfect is the enemy of the good. I add the words of joe e. Brown at the end of "some like it hot": "... Nobody's perfect."

g
6

Level 9

You have got to be delusional. Hasn't 2016 taught you anything? You sure you went to grad school?

2016 taught me that collectively we can metaphorically dodge a bullet.

Well. Grad school was Military sponsored.
Acceptable therapy for PTSD without losing your TS security clearance. 😆

@bigpawbullets thanks for serving, you still must honor your oath to protect our country, our democracy is in peril with the traitor and corrupt Trump in the WH.

@dumasarok sincerely hope you learned much more than that, as we did not dodge shit then and we actually shot ourselves in the balls because we're currently screwed by having a traitor and corrupt tyrant wannabe in the WH.

@Mofo1953
Well Mofo.... thank you.
But I see it differently. My duty is to protect our constitutional rights from all enemies, domestic and foreign. I consider the Loyal Opposition to be domestic terrorists.

@bigpawbullets the loyal opposition are also americans, you are wrong to consider them terrorists just because they do not agree with you. This is the first amendment to the constitution that it is your duty to protect, and it does not say "what I consider": "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." So once again you are wrong.
6

Level 8

I completely disagree with Yang’s take on it. You cannot work with a party (Republicans) hell bent on destroying the social safety net, and sowing racial and economic divisions. And yet, Democrats have proven wholly incapable of being an opposition party, moving further and further to the right. Despite the rhetoric, there is no “party of the left”. Only a far right party and a right of center party.

interesting viewpoint. Thanks for posting something thought provoking here.

Yes it seems so weird for me how some people can call the Democratic party a left wing party. How people here define left and right is beyond my ability to understand.

6

Level 9

It is also our fault if we "sit out"...in fact, 99% of the problem!

I agree ma'am. I'm just depressed over the choices. I'll vote for my analysis of the lesser of two evils. And that's the best I can do.

@bigpawbullets I think it has always been this way...both parties have always attempted to appeal to their base plus get more supporters, Compromise has always been needed!

@AnneWimsey
Of course Anne. I wish the "compromise" part would return.
6

Level 7

That's exactly how we got into this situation.

We're not in trouble because too many people voted.

5

Level 8

For your consideration: this article from "Thd Humanist" suggests White evangelicals had an outsized voice in the 2016 election, while non-religiously affiliated voters were underrepresented. Some 64% of White evangelicals voted, while we "nones", who are actually somewhat more numerous, failed to turn out to vote. Only 51% did so. If we count ourselves as somehow above voting for the available options, then our criticisms of the winners don't carry much weight.
[thehumanist.com]

Excellent point.
5

Level 8

If you sit this one out it’s a vote for Trump. Vote like your life depends on it.

That's what OP actually wants. He is going to vote for Trump. See his comments below. This thread is all trolling.

I suspect he's inclined to vote for Trump, despite not really liking him. Just reading his array of responses here. Anyone who'd equate Trump with Biden really doesn't care to consider actual facts.

because it totally does
5

Level 4

Please don't sit this one out. They're both pieces of trash, but one of these potential presidents will continue the cycle of spreading homicidally bad misinformation, perpetuating the smear campaign against the media and science, and continue to allow unmarked government vehicles snatch people up and throw them in camps, etc etc etc. I'm no fan of Biden, but we need him to be our next US President.

Above, he stated that he won't fence-sit and has decided that Trump is the better choice...
4

Level 8

Then you lack anything like perspective.

4

Level 9

The meme is correct. If you sit this one out or vote for a third party you have simply thrown away you vote. Keep in mind that in communist and fascist countries people still vote. Why? The dictators can point to the vote to claim their being in power is perfectly legal. That is the power of the vote.

4

Level 7

First, I myself will not vote for candidates who are war criminals, who support Zionists in the country of Palestine, which they have invaded, (as I look at it, any candidate that is supporting what the Zionists are doing IS a war criminal). I will not support illegal wars on countries that are not a direct threat to citizens of the USA, and I will not support any candidate that favors increasing the Pentagon budget, which is far to large, all the while ignoring our infrastructure. I will not support candidates who are religio-nazis or racists. That pretty much rules out me voting . . . . and I do not think what we need is voters . . . . we need revolutionaries. The whole system is rotten to the core, and trying to fix it is futile. The whole government needs to be changed, moved to the center of the country geographically, and fuck the lobbyists, corporate bribery, delegates, voting districts, the current constitution, and a lot of other bull shit that I cannot think of at the moment.

good gravy

Lighten up Francis

I think you should emigrate

If the constitution is bullshit, then we have no country. Every nation has to operate in reality. Reality is extremely complex & extremely harsh. Wars cannot be avoided lest you end up being invaded. We have definitely been in some for reasons that feel were opportunistic & unnecessary, but like it or not, securing our energy interests is a necessary evil in a world with nearly 8 BILLION people.

This is a good analogy, and why you should vote for Biden

@AtheistInNC Assuming both were alive and doing their thing, that is like saying that you should vote for Ted Bundy, because if you voted for Charles Manson, more people will be killed than the number that will be killed by Ted Bundy. (He takes extra time to cook and eat them.) There is no excuse for any president invading other countries, bombing them, using depleted uranium, when there are no direct and compelling threats to American Citizens.
Iraq was a prime example of what can happen; about 1 million people killed, simply because assholes believed that they could invade any country they wanted, and as far as they are concerned . . they say fuck other races. The biggest racists on the planet often sit in the White House and congress, they will claim not to be racist, but when you look at what they are doing to other cultures and countries, it becomes perfectly clear what they are.

@Nunya So it is OK with you when they bomb other cultures and countries, drone them, use depleted uranium, and kill people simply to improve their energy supply. That is a bad argument. They will tell you that they need to do it because they have no choice, but that is false. They will tell you the exact opposite when you start talking about drugs, because they understand that if there is a demand for something, and supply is reduced, the price will go up and the supply will arrive. It works exactly the same way with oil. In fact, if they would stop supporting the Zionist racists, and buy their oil from Iran, they would have no problems whatsoever with "energy", but they would prefer supporting racists like themselves when all is said and done. I will not repeat what I said in the post above, but there is no ambiguity whatsoever that these people are war criminals, mass murderers, and I will not vote for them.
The USA is causing most of the problems in the world today, by invading other countries that they have no business in. When was the last time China, Russia or Iran invaded as many countries as the USA has? This path that they have chosen will not end well. China, Russia, Pakistan, India, and who knows what other countries have more than enough nuclear weapons to destroy the earth ecosystem, on their own, even if no other country responded to their attack. How many times already has there been close calls? More than you likely think, you may want to check that out. Statistics are very much against us, and indeed, reality is extremely harsh. More harsh than most people can even imagine.

@Moravian First - 7 Reasons You’re Not Free To Leave - for those who are told if you do not love it leave it.
[libertarianmoney.wordpress.com]

Second - Just because one criticizes one's country does not mean they should leave it . . . . in fact, when you remove criticism, you end up with . . . . . dictatorship.

People who pay no attention to what the good old US of A has been doing overseas are like naive children who think that all cops work for the good side. What the USA has been doing overseas is war crimes, plain and simple, Iraq is a very good example, with about one million people in that country having been killed, and many more maimed, and there are many more war crimes ongoing. Below . . . the end results of using White Phosphorous on civilians . . . all brought to you by the good old US of A.

@Archeus_Lore I don't disagree with most of what you've said - I only point out that all the nations you mention are involved in middle east conflicts to some degree for the same reason - securing their oil supply. It's something that will likely never end - and personal fortunes of those in power have A LOT to do with it. BUT - it's not rational to say personal interests are the major reason why this happens - securing a nation's oil supply plays a HUGE role as well. (Just for the record, I abhor fossil fuels.) After all, everyone in the world can't buy their oil from Iran. (Which is NOT a better choice than any of the other middle eastern countries for various reasons.)

@Nunya No one was suggesting Iran be the SOLE supplier.

@Archeus_Lore And so how do you know your candidate won't, when peer pressured?

AtheistInNC Who is my candidate?

@Archeus_Lore With that logic, the fact that trump has openly flirted with using nukes should be reason enough for ANY sane person to vote for Biden.....in droves

Ha! Biden is not a leap and a jump different at all . . . ! They are both war-for-profit whores.

@Archeus_Lore Then what, specifically, are you suggesting a nation do to secure their oil needs?

@AtheistInNC My destination is less corporate control over the government and more responsive to the needs of the people.

NEITHER bus is even going close to that neighborhood.

Exactly what they always CLAIM they support, allow market forces to rule, that is, allow the laws of supply and demand take over, stop all the militant bullshit they are doing overseas, and allow the market to solve the problem instead of trying to solve problems with the use of FORCE everywhere. which is terrorism. When demand goes up, supply increases, and that is pretty much unstoppable, just look at the drug trade, they TRY to stop that, but they can't, because of high demand.

FROM STALIN'S ELECTION SPEECH, FEBRUARY 9, 1946
Excerpt:
"It would be incorrect to think that the war arose accidentally or as the result of the fault of some of the statesmen. Although these faults did exist, the war arose in reality as the inevitable result of the development of the world economic and political forces on the basis of monopoly capitalism.
.
Our Marxists declare that the capitalist system of world economy conceals elements of crisis and war, that the development of world capitalism does not follow a steady and even course forward, but proceeds through crises and catastrophes. The uneven development of the capitalist countries leads in time to sharp disturbances in their relations, and the group of countries which consider themselves inadequately provided with raw materials and export markets try usually to change this situation and to change the position in their favor by means of armed force. As a result of these factors, the capitalist world is sent into two hostile camps and war follows.

Perhaps the catastrophe of war could have been avoided if the possibility of periodic redistribution of raw materials and markets between the countries existed in accordance with their economic needs, in the way of coordinated and peaceful decisions. But this is impossible under the present capitalist development of world economy."
4

Level 8

In our country's version of democratic system, primaries are when we vote our true preferences. General elections are when we vote for the least objectionable option left to us. It has always been that way and will take Constitutional amendments to change. In today's hyper-polarized society, good luck holding your breath while you wait for that to happen.

4

Level 9

Huh? It's trump that's always blaming the radical left.. Sound familiar?

yep. And the lefties blaming the Establishment.
Somewhere, before we all "go to guns".... this has to stop.

@bigpawbullets Hon, there's too much power at stake for it ever to stop. The only way to transform the system is to support organizations that put progressives on the ballot - at all levels of government & work to help them get elected. The only way a politician is going to choose the people over offers of personal wealth is perhaps if they actually come from "the people" & have a sincere desire in their heart to raise them up.

@Nunya
I don't believe there are any politicians with that mindset.

@bigpawbullets Well personally, I believe there are some - particularly Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, & Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

@Nunya
I disagree with your selections. But you certainly have the option of writing in a name.

@bigpawbullets Ok, then do some work personally to get politicians that you believe would support the average person's interests on the ballot & in office.
4

Level 8

In my opinion it is always a big mistake to sit out a presidential election. Of course, you do you, I do me and let's strive to do or cause no harm.

Totally agree. Ever since I was a pre-teen my mom drilled into me the importance of voting and workers Unions. Don’t vote? Don’t complain!! was the saying. I always tell people in order to really enact change that you must vote on state and local elections more often, and these are the ones with the most meager turnouts. The laws that affect us are overwhelmingly laws that were passed by our state and the town/county/village that we live in. and it’s the states legislatures that set up its assembly and congressional lines which is done every ten years. This can only change thru education and those who read by going to bookstores or other available ways.

I agree Jylnn. I'm just in a "mood". I always vote.... these days for my view of the lesser evil. Depressing.

@bigpawbullets Elections are always depressing for most everyone in some way especially if one is wanting change, and I agree with the lesser of two evils attitude.
3

Level 7

Complete bullshit.

2

Level 7

It's unfortunate to see so many who still believe in ballot voting in such a corrupt and controlled system as the one we have now. The real power has purchased the selected the candidates and purchased your vote. Thinking that one candidate is any better or worse than the other is delusional. The elected will do as they are told on the things that matter with few exceptions. And the general public will do as it is told because as Thomas Jefferson so eloquently put it: "mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed"

2

Level 8

I feel for you. But I voted twice for the Republican Big Jim Thompson when I lived in Illinois. I escaped to progressive Wisconsin which was overtaken by the Tea Party & this is the result. Perhaps just this once or in 2 years we can check any incumbent by flipping the House. The Founding Fathers instilled this check point. Our current mothers are standing well....we shall see with whom they stand..

2

Level 8

It really is all the Republicons fault.

2

Level 8

I personally don't understand many people's understanding of the Electoral College and the many accompanying remarks. Do none of these people live in a Republican state. My vote doesn't count and there is absolutely nothing I can do to affect the outcome of this election. The only way my vote for POTUS would count is if I voted for Trump, which I won't do. I also won't vote for Biden. A return to the status quo is not something I will vote for. That leaves the Green Party or the Socialist Party. For all you Democrats that want to blame me for Trump winning a second term, pull your head out of the sand and my ...

This is not a time, historically speaking, to let perfect get in the way of better. Pouting will not help anything, and voting third party is just that - Pouting.

If you want to change the system so that multiple parties can actually participate, I'm with you 100%. We need proportional voting, and ranked choice voting would allow multiple parties without risking a minority win, but until we can make changes in the electoral system, third parties are just grandstands for attention whores.

@OldWiseAss Did you even read my reply? Do you understand the Electoral College system?

@AstralSmoke I also live in a Red State. Kansas is as Red as they get and we also have a winner-take-all system. My vote is overwhelmed in the process just like yours would be. That doesn't mean my vote isn't counted. If nothing else, coming close to defeating Trump in Kansas would be an amazing thing, and a wound to the Republican Party. I'm WAY to the left of Joe, but I've sent him my money, and he will get my vote.

My reference to pouting was a reaction to your statement that you "won't vote for Biden" because a return to the status quo is unacceptable. Hell, man, the status quo from 2016 would be a much better place to start working for socialist goals than 2021 will be if der Führer wins the election.

@OldWiseAss Most of countries have a 2 round voting system for executive branch (or any majority based voting).
Basically the first round will only decide if an absolute majority is achieved. If not, you bring the 2 best voted candidates for a second round.

So for first round you have the freedom to vote, and actually even a vote in a non viable candidate is good because it avoids the victory on the first round.
Then on the second round you can vote for the lesser evil, or not vote, whatever.

In general there are less people voting in the second round because they think none of the candidates are good, so this is also a message.

@OldWiseAss 1000% agree!

@Pedrohbds I think a two-round voting system like the one you describe would be a great improvement in the US. Of course, there are always going to be dimwits who'll only vote for a candidate who meets all of their strict requirements.

But if you give people the chance, most can give you their first and second choices. Having those choices legitimately offered on a ballot would correct a lot that is wrong with our current steaming heap of an electoral system.

Libertarian?

@OldWiseAss
YES!
What he said
^
l
/ \

@Mooolah - I am all for personal liberty, but the Libertarian Party in the US is all about corporate liberties like de-regulation of industry, elimination of social safety net, privatization of government functions. That's the American version of libertarian. They support legalization of pot to con young people into voting for them.

2

Level 8

I think this says it all. Joe's numbers are worse than Hillary's, and Pelosi wants Joe to stay in the bunker.

She's right. I don't think we're going to see any debates this time.
2

Level 8

Hope and Change 2 - The Biden Years

[rall.com]

lyin ted really???

@whiskywoman Bullshit. Ted Rall tells hard truths that even the centrist Dems don't want to hear. You are an ass, bb, when it comes to politics. The only reason I don't block you is that I enjoy your posts on cats.

@TomMcGiverin lol thank you do you listen to info wars too or is rush your man

@whiskywoman - pull your head out. It's apparently cutting off your oxygen supply.
2

Level 8

If nothing else, fuck it, vote for a third party candidate. As long as we have Libertarians , Green Party, etc, there are no more "lesser of two evils ".

that's a vote for trump don't do it

nope. If you want to make a difference, you've got to vote demo republican.

@whiskywoman it is not. It's funny how each party states that a 3rd party vote is a vote for the opposing party unless of course their candidate wins.

@RobertMartin really that's your reasoning a vote for a third party is a wasted vote so is a write in might as well stay home

@whiskywoman I'm going to vote. Not voting means that I have no say in things.

2

Level 9

I've read that Trump lost by nearly three million votes , and yet he still got the office . The candidates are theoretically vetted by the groups that support them as candidates . And yet it's come down to voting for the lesser of two evils . Once in office , they feel the need to repay the people who supported their getting the office , and suddenly become millionaires while decisions are made and laws passed that in no way are in the best interests of the vast majority of the citizens , nature , or the health of the planet .We continue to have riots and slaughters and the destruction of small businesses because the people are not satisfied and yet it's only the wealthiest 1% that have favorable laws . Elections are illusions .

No.... he did not lose. The electoral college did its job. You're whinging.

The last two Republican Presidents won because of the Electoral College in their initial elections - Bush in 2000 and Trump in 2016. Neither received a majority of votes nationwide.
2

Level 8

Somehow I doubt you'll sit it out..

yeah. Im just 'moody' today. At 70 I no longer enjoy moving rock to create a new garden bed....
Chardonnay is my friend. 😎🥂
1

Level 8

Cooperation. The House has passed hundreds of bills that Senate Majority Leader will not permit them to come to the floor. It was the cabal of Mitch, Ryan, & other tea Party stonewallers who conspired to foil Obama at every juncture. Biden is a conservative democrat in the vein of Senator Dick Durbin. Where are my liberal Republicans I used to enjoy? Gone to The Lincoln Project. www.thelincolnproject.com

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