Agnostic.com

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Fellow agnostics, how do you feel about believers joining?

This is likely contentious, but it needs to be asked. As this is a site "...promoting universal truths and peaceful life without religion" how do you feel about people of faith joining here?

I'm no shrinking violet and I don't need the sort of safe space that so many people believe they do now, but I also don't want to have to engage with people who have been inculcated into some form of unscientific, simple-minded view of the natural world.

I joined in the belief (cough) that this was an exclusive club where I could escape from these folk - but now I find they are joining - with a view to what, I don't know although my hackles are raised.

Not only is this sort of thing wasteful of resources, but if they are here to try to convert or preach at us, that's likely to result in a dissemination to all-out flame wars in a post or two.

I didn't think this was a site to convert people from one way of thinking to another (that sort of thing is nigh-on impossible by the time we're in our 20s anyway.)

I ask because I'm interested what my fellow angostic/athiests think.

I've noted that "theists" tend to butt in to these conversations with their ignorance and that's what I came here to avoid.

I'm getting too old to argue.

Draco 6 Sep 25
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583 comments (551 - 575)

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4

Not everything is for everybody. Come back when you cast off those beliefs.

28

I don't think they should be allowed to join. I joined because this was advertised as a dating site for non-believers. They've got Christian Mingle, let us have this. But of course, I am sure some nut jobs will come in trying to convert people and preach their nonsense. I get enough of their nonsense on Facebook, due to politics always being posted and me being the opinionated person I am, feeling the need to comment, especially when religion is mixed up in politics. And then I get attacked. This is my space to voice my opinion about not being religious and not being attacked for not believing in an imaginary sky daddy.

24

I came here to circle up with NONbelievers, specifically. ALL other aspects of my life are overrun with the religious. I just want a place to be myself and not have to worry about them. If this site chooses to go fully open, an understandable preference despite my not sharing it, I would likely drop out. Mixed, heavily religious sites pretty much own the internet, as well as US society in general. To become yet another typical site would be unfortunate. I certainly would not likely make time for that.

An exclusive site, largely social (not the same old religion bashing) for nonbelievers? I am behind THAT 120%! I really hope this site goes that way. It's off to a wonderful start!

Zster Level 8 Oct 8, 2017

Clarification: nonbeliever might have been a poor word choice. Perhaps I should have stated religious or those of a belief that would draw them here to bash or convert those of dissimilar mind.

Don't let the religious win. I agree with your comment about "not the same old religion bashing. Refuting religion will require ALL our critical AND compassionate faculties

16

As much as I believe that everybody's view should be respected, I have found over the years that it is useless to try and reason with a believer, because they do not use reason, their mind is full of dogma which no amount of reason can dislodge.

Except not every one of them is like that.

That ain’t necessarily so, I used to be a believer.

4

I wouldn't shut up anyone

5

I agree to an extent with Draco's post above. But I do not resent believers joining, for two reasons:

  1. I need to explore both sides of this issue and if I am not willing to listen to the side of believers I will likely miss a clue, a piece of the puzzle, or at least some resolution that they might offer. I am not gullible, however, and I do not just take anyone's word for anything. That's one reason I am agnostic. I will not be swayed by the type of religious fantasy that is rampant, the extreme and traumatic statements that I am just wrong, or it is all so simple, or that I am evil. I would like to get some clues or even borderline evidence - either way. And in order to do that, I feel I must listen to the logic both sides definitely have. I'm stuck in the middle. I want to be un-stuck. I am not going to fall for elementary and fanatical arguments either for or against this issue. I am looking for resolution.
4

As long as they're respectful of the beliefs of others, we should allow them their say. I think being agnostic (for me, anyway) it is being open minded enough to allow for people of other beliefs to join and have mature and respectful conversations.
The problem I run into is that they are seldom mature and respectful. You can't argue faith.

4

I think it holds the opportunity to opening up great conversations in an encouraging environment surely enough... however you have to watch for the trolls and the overly religious fanatics who cannot comprehend normal human conversation on differing beliefs... but it is ideal to allow those who are different from us agnostics and atheists to have a say... as long as it isn't too intrusive.

4

When my "faith-full" friends try to give me a hard time about doubting the existence of a Higher Power, I often say, "I don't try to make you NOT believe; why is it so important to you that I do?"

So. If a believer comes in with the intention of trying to "save" us, spare me. If they just want to hang out, fine. ....although I can't imagine why they would. ????

Some of them are emotionally unstable, for sure. But some are sincere and want to help by giving their views. It depends on what those views are as to whether or not they help me get off the fence. -- The one thing that really has a dramatic effect on me is this: Why, on the otherhand, do atheists get so angry, disgusted, and resentful of those who do believe? The believers are not hurting them. Why do they make a case for conversion from Christianity? It appears to me that many atheists are really almost militant in trying to make believers fools or fooled., and obviously as an enemy. What's it to an athiest if another person believes? That is strange. Very strange.

7

This site is called agnostic.com. Agnostic means you believe you can't prove or unproved the existence of god(s). There are agnostic theists. If you built this site for atheists you named it wrong.

and there are three levels of agnosticism: hard, soft and apathetic.

agnostic has nothing to do with belief; it means: not knowing of a god existing. an agnostic theist would thereby be someone who, despite not knowing of an existing god, believes in him - exactly the kind of babble people attempt to escape when joining this site.

5

Let them join. It might be a good way to get them to move from certainty to questioning.

And for me, vice-versa. The very definition of being agnostic must leave open a deeply self-searching for the truth. If you won't listen to possibilities, then call yourself an atheist.

9

If believers are joining then I'm leaving!!!!!

I think the Admins really need to look at this issue judging by the strength of feeling here. As others have said, we don't need a "safe space" but we do need somewhere we can feel able to be ourselves without being trolled or dragged into arguments that are not of our making.

It seems to me that this Group should not be for agnostics and athiests ... it should be for one or another. If we argue among ourselves, then there is no point. It is of considerable interest and concern to me that atheists are almost militant against the very existence of Christians. There is such a broad spectrum of belief and non-belief among peoples of this planet that no one has the right to dismiss the validity of what anyone ... anyone ... believes for themselves - especially people like me, an agnostic. If you don't know, then surely you want to find out. That's the point. If you close your mind then you never will find out. And if you're an atheist, why even be in this Group ... or any Group? An atheist believes that "the end" is the end ... so what's to argue ?????????

let me know where you're going, & i'll come with you.

@garlon999, you couldn't have made your prejudices, generalizations & authoritarian attitude clearer if you'd tried.

32

I just joined so I don't really have a lay of the land yet. That said, from the description of the site, I was led to believe this would be a place where we secularists could go to get away from the religious. Far be it from me to need a safe space, that's not what I'm trying to say. But let's be real, religious people own the world. They dominate the conversation everywhere. I don't think they belong here. They can go to their churches for fellowship. I don't want them here proselytizing and trying to convert us. I am tired of fighting with the religious and just want to find likeminded people that truly get where I'm coming from because that is really hard to find.

Maybe, just maybe, from all of the madness of almost all religious people ... they might just make a statement that would give a glimmer of consideration. And isn't that why we are here? To be open enough to discover the truth for ourselves?

I agree. I'm new too but I also think it's going to be pretty hard to actively keep them out. I suppose unless they are causing a problem their really isn't a need to bother over it.

garlon999: No, I'm here to meet non-religious people so I don't have to have those damned discussions!

It bears pointing out that there is no universally accepted definition of "religion", and there are many people who consider themselves religious who do not believe in gods, nor in anything supernatural. Those folks--like me--belong here as much as anyone else.

@catdogartlove me too I really can’t even tolerate that BS, even driving past a church pisses me off, knowing all the fools inside are sucked in, brainwashed and giving their hard earned money to this bullshit. There is so much wrong with all of it!

@Funeralgirl Glad I'm not the only one who feels like that, I really do resent churches putting up 15 foot posters in garish colours announcing to the world that basically conforming to idiocy and prejudice is somehow a good thing.
I particularly hate having to explain to my kids why some building have huge frightening statues of a half naked bleeding dying man outside of them.

I sorta agree with ya, but I think there's enough room for everyonel, After all, by them simply being here gives you a chance to help change their worldview. Equal opportunity. If you don't want a debate, move on to something else. That's easy enough. Just say'n! 🙂

2

Let them in. The trouble makers can be banned and the rest can be educated. The best tactic I've found is to boil it straight down to logic and getting them to acknowledge what a logical fallacy it, explain it, give an example of it, and then either confirm that what they said was fallacious or explain why it doesn't qualify as that and is instead a false flag.

21

I've been in and out of atheist/agnostic groups since the mid 90s. Letting in religious peeps always leads to problems and eventually dissolves the group.

3

If they're looking to learn about different perspectives, then more power to them. But, I find in most secular-based communities when the devoted religious join it's to start arguments that they're certain they're going to win. It drums up a lot of temporary drama and just ends up reducing the thoughtfulness of arguments from both sides until everybody looks like an ass.

58

Today is my first day, but the reason I joined was to get away from religious view points and be able to be in a community of people who lean more toward the way I look at things. I get the religious perspective all the time. However, if they are respectful of our beliefs as I am with anyone else’s beliefs then maybe it will help bridge the gap between us all.

Welcome Alliegirl - I think you're echoing what the majority feel - I hope the Admin is watching. 🙂

Hello Alliegirl, That you for mentioning "respectful." I've always had a problem with people who think I should respect their beliefs - even if they are fundamentalists and represent everything I oppose. I don't think the Constitution says I have to respect anything (I haven't read it lately; I may be wrong). I have to TOLERATE their beliefs (as long as they are not truly evil, nazis, etc.). I will not respect beliefs that encompass racial bigotry and supporting a thug like trump.

I don't think the theists who want to join us are searching for truth - wouldn't they be calling themselves "agnostic" if they were? If they have questions, we can refer them to authors who have already anwered their questions - Dawkins, et. al.

@LIB75002 - I would go further : I certainly don't respect their beliefs, or even tolerate them - all I do is acknowledge them. End of.

@Agnostic1 - that's a great word. I'll probably start using it now instead of tolerate. Thank you

We actually need to be up against f2f with religious people all the time in order to refute their arguments and so them a more compassionate less negative way off living without having to preach or argue

Allie, would you "respect" the belief that the world was flat? And we can go on forever in the 'book of lies'. I have no respect for religious fools- or secular ones either.

@TheMiddleWay it's like the bullet kills people- but the gun has nothing to do with it. People should disrespect Trump's ideas- but Trump has nothing to do with the blather that comes out of his mouth. Is there more of your ideas? Ya, people in stone houses should not throw glasses.

@Diogenes I wouldn’t respect the belief, but I would try to be respectful to the person no matter how much of a “fool” I may think they are. You have you’re way of being, I have mine.

@Alliegirl Sometimes things get confusing on here; I was responding to the person above. If a person is leading a decent life- it is absolutely none of my business whether they believe in fairy tales or not. I agree with you 100%. And there are too many things in my own life that I wish I had the power to take back.

@AncientNight I stand corrected and agree.

Welcome Alliegirl! Keep on posting!

@Diogenes
How about, "the world is perceptually flat in a spherical way"?

You can respect a person’s right to believe what they will and respectfully disagree with them even if you don’t respect the particularl belief that person holds.

@Draco Fair enough! Nobody ever let a wolf among his sheep herd without a loaded gun on reserve, lol!! I welcome the Admins' scrutiny! Be well!

Alliegirl you make an excellent point ?

4

I can't stop someone from joining, if they become unrulely report him or give it back to them....is it prefered they don't join, well sure lol

5

Dont mind it, were here for discussion, though it'll prob bring along alot of trolls too

5

I was so excited to join a community where I wouldn't have to be shamed all the time. I mean, maybe it'll convince one to see reason, but I believe they are only here to feed their agenda and I've had about enough.

2

Why would they be here except to troll us?

4

I'm okay with it, as long as they keep out the hate. The best thing about this site, for me, is that I can post whatever I like about religion without sending notifications to real life religious friends or family who will respond negatively. The arguments don't really bother me.

That said, we've all been part of agnostic FB groups where routinely these jerks join just to post some hateful, ignorant meme and get out. My tolerance for that has gotten pretty low.

6

I think it would be a good idea if people would behave themselves. Admittedly that's a big whopping improbable if. I enjoy debate, I do it all the time, and as long as it stays civil, it can lead to beneficial conversations. I know how to control my discussions, and I never let them get to the point where it turns from a debate into a fight.

9

I agree. I came here to avoid the constant nagging of believers I face on other social media. I don't have a problem with arguing, but does it have to be at an agnostic site?

21

If they are here with an open mind to actually learn something, and have an intelligent discussion, they should be welcomed. If they are here just to be obnoxious, ignorant trolls, they should be banned.

Agree

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