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Fellow agnostics, how do you feel about believers joining?

This is likely contentious, but it needs to be asked. As this is a site "...promoting universal truths and peaceful life without religion" how do you feel about people of faith joining here?

I'm no shrinking violet and I don't need the sort of safe space that so many people believe they do now, but I also don't want to have to engage with people who have been inculcated into some form of unscientific, simple-minded view of the natural world.

I joined in the belief (cough) that this was an exclusive club where I could escape from these folk - but now I find they are joining - with a view to what, I don't know although my hackles are raised.

Not only is this sort of thing wasteful of resources, but if they are here to try to convert or preach at us, that's likely to result in a dissemination to all-out flame wars in a post or two.

I didn't think this was a site to convert people from one way of thinking to another (that sort of thing is nigh-on impossible by the time we're in our 20s anyway.)

I ask because I'm interested what my fellow angostic/athiests think.

I've noted that "theists" tend to butt in to these conversations with their ignorance and that's what I came here to avoid.

I'm getting too old to argue.

By Draco
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565 comments

105

I feel that this isn't a place that is created to function as a debate center, or a recruitment center. What other reason would a "true believer" have to join an "agnostic" group?

In other words, no, no, and hell no.

CatByrd Level 4 Nov 10, 2017
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I find I can agree with anyone about 95 present of things we discuss upon. That 5 percent of disagreements is a bitch. When the Religious come you, like this site. You have a big advantage to educate them of your way of thinking. If you don't like bebates, just say no, if you don't want to.

Above, I mean, don't like debates

I agree with CatByrd 100%

But I am a "true believer"- I believe in reality- so obviously that negates religion! LOL

@Diogenes, i, on the other hand, do not have to believe in reality (or anything else, for that matter); i experience it sensually every single moment of this life. i feel for you.

@walklightly You "don't have to believe in reality"- and I "feel" for you!

Exactly! @CatByrd Yes, yes and hell yes to your answer.

Ummm you're going to hell for saying hell, and now I'm going to hell too! Thanks a lot.

I agree. Why would they want to be here. Unless to troll, or possibly they believe but are still conflicted in some way. Doesn’t agnostic actually mean that you aren’t sure? Atheism is more adamant that there is no god.

It seems like I may have written about this before, but I see no problem with refuting and putting up a good argument for our non-belief. Something I do find strange is that part of the profile choices are "open to meeting men/women". That seems to make this website a dating or place to hook up site. When anyone mentions something "dating" related, there is plenty of replies. I'd much rather read a thoughtful debate that defends atheism.

@Castlepaloma Really? bebates was the only thing you thought to fix? That's alright, it's funnier this way. Just having a little fun with ya.

Edited

@SACatWalker Who's Hell, Which Hell, Where the hell is that Hell?

Edited

@SACatWalker ROTF!

Ah but, the good thing that comes from exposure to people who have opposing opinions/beliefs to your own, is that it provides an opportunity for growth and a re-examination of your own belief system, and knowing why you believe what you do.

@Melind
No agnostic means you believe in some of the history or stories being told by the bible but certainly not blinded by the light.

What did you mean by "hell"?

The term "agnostic" absolutely does not mean you necessarily believe in some of the history or stories in the bible. I've literally never heard it used that way, until now. In general use, it does usually refer to someone who isn't sure whether or not a god exists, whereas "atheist" tends to be used to refer to someone who is more sure of themselves. Those are bad definitions though, I think.

I strongly prefer the following definitions: angel.gifgnostic -- with/out knowledge (of god/s). A(theist) -- with/out (belief in) god/s. They're not mutually exclusive. Personally, I'd call myself an agnostic atheist most of the time; I don't hold a belief in god/s, but I'm not sure that none exist. A gnostic atheist would claim to know that no gods exist. An agnostic theist would claim a belief in god/s, but not knowledge, and a gnostic theist would claim to know that god/s exist. Yes, I think I've got that right.

@Graeme the definition of an agnostic, according to the dictionary, is "a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."

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66

Today is my first day, but the reason I joined was to get away from religious view points and be able to be in a community of people who lean more toward the way I look at things. I get the religious perspective all the time. However, if they are respectful of our beliefs as I am with anyone else’s beliefs then maybe it will help bridge the gap between us all.

Alliegirl Level 7 Oct 1, 2017
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Welcome Alliegirl - I think you're echoing what the majority feel - I hope the Admin is watching. smile001.gif

Hello Alliegirl, That you for mentioning "respectful." I've always had a problem with people who think I should respect their beliefs - even if they are fundamentalists and represent everything I oppose. I don't think the Constitution says I have to respect anything (I haven't read it lately; I may be wrong). I have to TOLERATE their beliefs (as long as they are not truly evil, nazis, etc.). I will not respect beliefs that encompass racial bigotry and supporting a thug like trump.

I don't think the theists who want to join us are searching for truth - wouldn't they be calling themselves "agnostic" if they were? If they have questions, we can refer them to authors who have already anwered their questions - Dawkins, et. al.

@LIB75002 - I would go further : I certainly don't respect their beliefs, or even tolerate them - all I do is acknowledge them. End of.

@Agnostic1 - that's a great word. I'll probably start using it now instead of tolerate. Thank you

We actually need to be up against f2f with religious people all the time in order to refute their arguments and so them a more compassionate less negative way off living without having to preach or argue

Allie, would you "respect" the belief that the world was flat? And we can go on forever in the 'book of lies'. I have no respect for religious fools- or secular ones either.

@Diogenes

Respect is only for people, not ideas. As such, you respect the person and attack the idea. But when a persons wrong ideas earn them your disrespect, then you set up a "glass house" for others to disrespect you just because you have wrong ideas yourself.

@TheMiddleWay it's like the bullet kills people- but the gun has nothing to do with it. People should disrespect Trump's ideas- but Trump has nothing to do with the blather that comes out of his mouth. Is there more of your ideas? Ya, people in stone houses should not throw glasses.

@Diogenes I wouldn’t respect the belief, but I would try to be respectful to the person no matter how much of a “fool” I may think they are. You have you’re way of being, I have mine.

@Alliegirl Sometimes things get confusing on here; I was responding to the person above. If a person is leading a decent life- it is absolutely none of my business whether they believe in fairy tales or not. I agree with you 100%. And there are too many things in my own life that I wish I had the power to take back.

@LIB75002 I have to correct you on ONE thing. Trump is not a thug. He is nothing more than a punk ass bully and a coward. If someone were to threaten him, he would call out his thugs to defend him, and then run and hide under his bed.

@AncientNight I stand corrected and agree.

Welcome Alliegirl! Keep on posting!

@LIB75002 What word? It's gone! Tell me the word! I wanna see the word.

@LIB75002, @AncientNight Yeah, he can't debate without name-calling, or fire someone face to face anymore.

@Diogenes
How about, "the world is perceptually flat in a spherical way"?

You can respect a person’s right to believe what they will and respectfully disagree with them even if you don’t respect the particularl belief that person holds.

@Draco Fair enough! Nobody ever let a wolf among his sheep herd without a loaded gun on reserve, lol!! I welcome the Admins' scrutiny! Be well!

46

I'm not thrilled about it either. I wonder wtf they're doing here. It's one of the reasons I suggested to admin that we'll need a blocking/reporting system. Unfortunately, even if blocked, that won't keep their inevitable disruptions out of discussions, unless everyone agrees to ignore these folks.

One of the big problems with these folks that I've noticed in real life (among Christians) is that they don't know how to take "no" or "not interested" as an answer. They reject that agnostics and atheists are just as steadfast in their beliefs as they are in their Christian belief.

bingst Level 8 Sep 25, 2017
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I concur.

Same.

I would not defend but point out flaws and atrocities in scripture. I am not a Christian! There are many believers and many with doubts and open to an honest discussion on the authenticity of their faith and the Bible. Let them ask, I have answers. Sorry I did not make my self clear.

The religious have a blocking system for turning you away at the pearly gates AND further for condemning you to absolute eternal fire. Why sink to their level?

@Mcflewster I don't mind having conversations with believers. I won't put up with being harrassed by someone who wants to convert me, neither here nor in real life. It's the latter type I was referring to in my comment, and the consensus seems to be that that is the type who would probably join this site.

@bingst Fine but why do you get harassed. Are they winning?

NB this is not a battle but is concerned with our future and how soon we get to where you want to be

I think your right. I have a hunch that a religious person who joins this sight would be pretty sure about his/her position, and probably would be a nuisance.

@KentTorch "many Christians with doubts", I don't think so; that would take a little thought. The ones that do terminate religion, many are very angry that they have been coned so badly; that everything was there in plain site, and for some reason they didn't pay attention to the obvious.

That makes me do a double take. Your choice of vernacular.
As follows "They reject that agnostics and atheists are just as steadfast in their beliefs as they are in their Christian belief."

Like telling me you have a fying car, SAY WHAT?!

Atheism has no beliefs, it is a NON thing. By adopting Atheism one does not gain anything, especially some set of beliefs, they perhaps shed one they did hold, a theistic set.
Agnosticism is addressing an entirely different question, one about esoteric, revealed knowledge of some God orother.

SO how can any Atheist be steadfast in something which has no beliefs to be steadfats in?

Rather, your meaning is you are NOT convinced their religious tales are true and valid, you are NOT sold. By stating that you are just as steadfast in your belief in atheism, you have turned Atheism into another belief system, which is precisely what many fundamentalist sects argue that it is, or want it to be.
Then they can argue against that.

When you do not use such terminology they are truly stuck with the impossible task of trying to prove what they do believe, which cannot be done.
That effort makes them realize (sometimes), that it cannot be done, which makes folks think "Why do I believe this?"

@Leutrelle while I AM sure in my beliefs, I also realize that what I personally believe is not acceptable here and therefore, counter-productive to discuss. What is most interesting to ME for being here is hear from all of you your stories and what unkindness, hypocrisy and inappropriate comments that Christians have hurled at you that have deeply hurt.

In order to build a bridge, I feel I must hear the whole stinkin' truth. After all, I may have said and done the same things without realizing it, and I want to stop doing it, whatever it is.

I do respect the valid misgivings many of you have, however, and realize that centuries of mistrust won't be erased for a long time. If I step on toes, just let me know and you'll have my sincerest apology

Rest assured, I'm also NOT someone trying to write a book, either.I'm only here to listen and learn how to be a little more open-minded, more tolerant, and more sensitive to others. Peace to all on your journeys.

38

I just joined so I don't really have a lay of the land yet. That said, from the description of the site, I was led to believe this would be a place where we secularists could go to get away from the religious. Far be it from me to need a safe space, that's not what I'm trying to say. But let's be real, religious people own the world. They dominate the conversation everywhere. I don't think they belong here. They can go to their churches for fellowship. I don't want them here proselytizing and trying to convert us. I am tired of fighting with the religious and just want to find likeminded people that truly get where I'm coming from because that is really hard to find.

LuminousD Level 2 Oct 3, 2017
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Maybe, just maybe, from all of the madness of almost all religious people ... they might just make a statement that would give a glimmer of consideration. And isn't that why we are here? To be open enough to discover the truth for ourselves?

I agree. I'm new too but I also think it's going to be pretty hard to actively keep them out. I suppose unless they are causing a problem their really isn't a need to bother over it.

garlon999: No, I'm here to meet non-religious people so I don't have to have those damned discussions!

It bears pointing out that there is no universally accepted definition of "religion", and there are many people who consider themselves religious who do not believe in gods, nor in anything supernatural. Those folks--like me--belong here as much as anyone else.

@catdogartlove me too I really can’t even tolerate that BS, even driving past a church pisses me off, knowing all the fools inside are sucked in, brainwashed and giving their hard earned money to this bullshit. There is so much wrong with all of it!

@Funeralgirl Glad I'm not the only one who feels like that, I really do resent churches putting up 15 foot posters in garish colours announcing to the world that basically conforming to idiocy and prejudice is somehow a good thing.
I particularly hate having to explain to my kids why some building have huge frightening statues of a half naked bleeding dying man outside of them.

37

In theory I'd be more than fine with engaging in conversation with respectful theists, but I came here to have a place to talk to other unbelievers specifically. Seeing as though it's a specific forum and not an open outlet like facebook or reddit, I'm going to have to say that I'd rather not have believers on here.

jacksonMB Level 3 Sep 25, 2017
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I agree.

32

I don't think they should be allowed to join. I joined because this was advertised as a dating site for non-believers. They've got Christian Mingle, let us have this. But of course, I am sure some nut jobs will come in trying to convert people and preach their nonsense. I get enough of their nonsense on Facebook, due to politics always being posted and me being the opinionated person I am, feeling the need to comment, especially when religion is mixed up in politics. And then I get attacked. This is my space to voice my opinion about not being religious and not being attacked for not believing in an imaginary sky daddy.

AccursedHalo Level 6 Oct 9, 2017
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31

This is my third time coming back to this question because it caused a lot more debate in my head than I thought it would. I'm an inclusive type of person so my first impulse was to allow them. However, the points I kept coming back to are:

1) This site provided me with room to breathe in a way I've never experienced before. Sure, everyone has different shades of non-belief and it's stimulating to discuss them, but I'm safe from the theist challenges I deal with in the rest of my life. There are tons of other sites out there where I debate as the black sheep "outsider" with the religious. It doesn't have to be this one.

2) Although it's a real bonus to find community here, I believed this was promoted as a dating site solely for agnostics which was a big draw for me. In fact, I've never joined a site so quickly as I did this one and I love the people I've met! I don't need to fear getting involved with someone who's just tolerating my beliefs.

So, no, I don't think they should be allowed.

Lauren Level 7 Oct 19, 2017
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Take this as a "like" to your comment, silvereyes. (^.^)

I see your point, but in many ways when places become "echo chambers" they can defeat the purpose, especially if that is one of free thinking.

I understand what you're saying, PNEawf, but I've seen a lot of variations of freethinking here so I'm not sure we'd be too monotone. But one thing that seems to be uniform across the board is an unwillingness to date a religious person, so maybe it should be polled? (Or maybe it was, I'll have to go look.)

@Lauren Has it been? I know the question atleast has been asked. I seem to be among the minority lol if thats the case.

@Neraven I believe the site is still open to religious, but it may be open for discussion. But I'll let you know if I find out otherwise.

We want them( religious or believers in different weard things) or not, they are here. And there also are plenty of well spoken atheists who might want to take a challenge to re-educate them. I think the main idea for nonbelievers should be to promote critical thinking. We should try to extend our community. If not we are useless. The overwhelming voices of religious madmen will push us into the conner.

Edited

I agree that there are some here, @Lonely, but I still stand by my position. This is a dating site, and a lot of people are looking for a haven where they don't have to defend their beliefs the way they do on countless believer dating sites - this is, after all, our only dating site. I think many nonbelievers here gain the strength they need to take up the challenge in their real lives, but their activism should not be mandatory to their efforts to meet a mate.

28

I came here to circle up with NONbelievers, specifically. ALL other aspects of my life are overrun with the religious. I just want a place to be myself and not have to worry about them. If this site chooses to go fully open, an understandable preference despite my not sharing it, I would likely drop out. Mixed, heavily religious sites pretty much own the internet, as well as US society in general. To become yet another typical site would be unfortunate. I certainly would not likely make time for that.

An exclusive site, largely social (not the same old religion bashing) for nonbelievers? I am behind THAT 120%! I really hope this site goes that way. It's off to a wonderful start!

Zster Level 7 Oct 8, 2017
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Clarification: nonbeliever might have been a poor word choice. Perhaps I should have stated religious or those of a belief that would draw them here to bash or convert those of dissimilar mind.

Don't let the religious win. I agree with your comment about "not the same old religion bashing. Refuting religion will require ALL our critical AND compassionate faculties

27

I've been in and out of atheist/agnostic groups since the mid 90s. Letting in religious peeps always leads to problems and eventually dissolves the group.

Redlegdex Level 5 Oct 2, 2017
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23

If they are here with an open mind to actually learn something, and have an intelligent discussion, they should be welcomed. If they are here just to be obnoxious, ignorant trolls, they should be banned.

ChevalMugs Level 4 Sep 27, 2017
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Agree

23

I'd prefer to communicate ONLY with agnostics and atheists! If I want to indulge with theists, there are plenty of places online and off for this. IF they are allowed, then it might be a good idea to have them clearly identified as such. I foresee them trying to take over the site, and agnostics and atheists growing frustrated and exiting. I'm too old to argue also, and I'm not trying to convert anyone. I guess the challenge would be how to determine whether they're a theist prior to acceptance, or showing them the door if they won't be respectful.

GoodMan Level 7 Sep 25, 2017
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and what if aetheists aren't respectful?

Trouble is the theists tend to preach only to the converted and do not engage intellectually. Try a different approach??

I think we should have filters when searching for members, as well as filters to hide posts / comments from religious participants. Sorry, I have too many encounters with jeebus folks in real life and social media. If this place gets overrun by simpleton trolls.. It would not be good

different issue. it's deflection, @SamL.

@walklightly what is deflection?

@SamL, it means a "change of direction". with your question you open a whole new can of worms, instead of staying with the issue, which is: do agnostics want to have believers amongst them here?

22

I really can't imagine most theists being respectful, or participating in discussion in a logical way.

JustKip Level 7 Nov 5, 2017
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22

As much as I believe that everybody's view should be respected, I have found over the years that it is useless to try and reason with a believer, because they do not use reason, their mind is full of dogma which no amount of reason can dislodge.

Beelzebub Level 5 Oct 7, 2017
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Except not every one of them is like that.

That ain’t necessarily so, I used to be a believer.

19

Well this is a site for agnostics and atheists. A Christian has a ton of websites that they can join. I see their attempt to join a group of agnostics and atheists negatively. They either want to troll or "witness".

Avi_J Level 2 Nov 18, 2017
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18

I'm glad you raised the question. I, too, would prefer that theists not join us. They already outnumber us in the outside world; it would be wearisome if they came here in large numbers. We already debate them constantly outside; why do they come in here? I'd suggest as a deterrent that the introductory questionnaire be edited, such that it no longer offers 0% to, say, 25% as a possible response to the question "How certain are you that no gods exist?" That would weed out most devout Christians from entering the site since answering the question without the 0% amounts to denying Christ, which is a big no-no.

vertrauen Level 6 Sep 25, 2017
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True, but most actual Christians would answer honestly because of the degree of condemnation assigned to Peter for his denial of Jesus on the morning after his arrest. Besides it would be fun to catch them out on "bearing false witness," denying Christ, and/or expressing doubts of their own supposedly solid convictions.

I like your idea, there could a limit to theist where there is reports of their troubles of trolling or bashing. They could be banned from site if too many reports. Too many numbers of one group outside of nonbelievers like theist's can get disrupting.

16

They have plenty of their own sites where they can preach to the choir. I'd prefer that they leave us alone here.

Deb57 Level 7 May 7, 2018
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religion and spirituality to me is not an atheist room, but that is who runs that room. I quit, and happily never go there. Why don't you have a room for atheists and one for agnostics? They mean 2 different things and to me neither are spiritual.

what room do you claim as only atheistic?

This whole site is for us. Religious people have plenty of social networks of their own.

@Deb57 then why do you have a religion and spirituality room? that is not athisistic. The very name agnostics. com means those who believe or aren't sure they disbelieve but aren't sure. you need to change the community to atheists.com. The religion and spiritual room is misrepresented, Spirituality means you believe their is a higher power but not a dogmatic god. So you gve the community the wrong name and create a room no one can get along in. The definitions do not match atheists.

@BettyColeman Actually, agnosticism is a type of atheism. An atheist is someone who rejects the claim that any gods exist. An agnostic is someone who doubts or has not committed to a belief in any gods, which also denotes a lack of belief. Since atheists and agnostics find themselves in a minority in the world, and often experience anything from marginalization to outright execution for not conforming to the beliefs popular in a given part of the planet, religion and spirituality tend to be hot topics for us. You could call it a survival tool, perhaps.

@Deb57 And just what is 'Religion and Spirituality' as a room? not atheist or agnostic. I am telling you I spent time looking up definitions to some of your labels. If I am an atheist, I should not be a skeptic. Ah, you people want your cake and eat it too. What you say makes no logical sense. I read definitions for agnostics. They are NOT atheists. They don't know what is the truth.

@Deb57 I am not religious.

what a disgusting remark . I accept everyone as they are and I have nothing to preach except your belief is your own choice.

@BettyColeman Whatever. If you want to know what topics are discussed in the section called Religion and Spirituality, I suggest you take a look for yourself. I'm not the moderator. If you don't like my remarks, feel free not to read them. I'm not judgmental, and I don't enjoy associating with judgmental people. Please go pick on somebody else.

@Deb57 I was in it a long time. All in that room fight. I do not live my life. I try to fix problems humanity; I am not interested in ignorant, bullying abuse. I quit and do not miss the hypocrites in tat room. I am done for the night unless I do some posts

@Deb57 True theyt have their own rooms, but too many of them feel the uncontrollable urge to proselytize, because all of us atheist are going to hell and they have to save us.
even though we do not believe in any of it.
those types should be asked to leave.

@kanawah how can an atheist go to hell when he doesn't believe in one? Each individual creates their own reality. As that is so, one should quit allowing others to invade their space.

Edited

@BettyColeman I am an atheist and a humanist but I cannot abide religion because it oppresses and divides people. I also consider myself spiritual because i can be moved to tears by a piece of music or a wonderful experience or by simply closing my eyes and breathing in a beautiful rain forest. I am overwhelmed with awe at the very existence of the universe so please don't tell me I'm not spiritual. I find it in the connection I have with those I love including my dog and trees.

16

Great way to turn the site toxic.

If you want to engage with believers there are plenty of other sites you can do that on.

ErrantRunner Level 3 Nov 12, 2017
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16

The simple answer is "Nope." The long answer is too long to write here. Just enough to say that believers who join agnostic/atheist groups just want to convert the non-believers.

SageDave Level 6 Nov 12, 2017
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15

Part of my conversion to the truth was helped along by healthy debate. Some folks think it a waste of time, but while a staunch born-againer, sane and logical argument points would stick in my craw. So a point to remember: when engaging someone of faith in a discussion, keep it clean, respectful, and as insightful as possible. A good mixture of logic and philosophy 101 helps a lot.

So - let'm in. If they're abusive and don't want mature conversation, punt them.

Hominid Level 7 Nov 3, 2017
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I hate being wrong. My response was "Hell no!" but you've convinced me there is room here for "believers" - at least of a certain type.

15

I think, personally, that people who spout religion should be tactfully blocked from the site. I have enough religion jumping up in my face on social media, on the street, in the newspaper etc. I came here today to NOT have religious people on here.

Teresa Level 5 Oct 16, 2017
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15

I just joined the group today and I was reading some of the questions and post and was surprised by the how many believers there ended up being. I was hoping to come here for discussion among fellow non-theists on topics concerning non-theists without having to wade through theist comments. Though I am new so I haven't had "an issue" with them yet, if I continue to use the site regularly I am sure I will at some point.

Nicsnort Level 6 Sep 26, 2017
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14

I can't see any good reason to allow theists onto an atheist dating service; defeats the purpose. I'm here because I know I don't want a relationship with a theist. I would have thought that's why we're all here.

Were I a Christian, I probably wouldn't want to see atheists on Christian Mingle, either.

Quiggifur Level 4 May 2, 2018
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absolutely with you. why would we want this site, this community soiled by delusionists?

@walklightly precisely

your welcome and sign up does not deny anyone.

14

Why would they want to? My interest in what they think or why is ZERO. Do they see themselves as ( Somebody has to keep an eye on those godless bastards ) a spy? How amusing. I suspect they will find themselves out of their league quickly and drop out.

ForTheBirds Level 5 May 2, 2018
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i never realized what I was getting into. I thought it was a place that was liberal and realized that a believe system is the personal right of all people/ Boy was I shocked.WHAT YOU PROCLAIM this community is so DIFFERENT THAT YOU WANT IT TO BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE COMMUNITY DEFINED DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU WANTED IT TO BE.

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14

I don't think they should join. I live in the bible belt, I'm here to avoid that stuff. I want to meet people with similar ideas, not more of the same people I've been meeting!

MissMay Level 4 Nov 24, 2017
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14

My first follower is a believer. Sigh. I also received notification that he sent a message but messenger is bugging, so the chat box was empty. I've not seen him comment on any of the posts that I've read or commented on. I'm not interested in having private chats with believers here. Like you, Draco, I joined to escape from these folks. Feeling disappointed.

VictoriaNotes Level 8 Sep 29, 2017
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