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Fellow agnostics, how do you feel about believers joining?

This is likely contentious, but it needs to be asked. As this is a site "...promoting universal truths and peaceful life without religion" how do you feel about people of faith joining here?

I'm no shrinking violet and I don't need the sort of safe space that so many people believe they do now, but I also don't want to have to engage with people who have been inculcated into some form of unscientific, simple-minded view of the natural world.

I joined in the belief (cough) that this was an exclusive club where I could escape from these folk - but now I find they are joining - with a view to what, I don't know although my hackles are raised.

Not only is this sort of thing wasteful of resources, but if they are here to try to convert or preach at us, that's likely to result in a dissemination to all-out flame wars in a post or two.

I didn't think this was a site to convert people from one way of thinking to another (that sort of thing is nigh-on impossible by the time we're in our 20s anyway.)

I ask because I'm interested what my fellow angostic/athiests think.

I've noted that "theists" tend to butt in to these conversations with their ignorance and that's what I came here to avoid.

I'm getting too old to argue.

Draco 6 Sep 25
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583 comments (26 - 50)

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13

I've been on this board eight months now. I have benefited a lot from reading your posts, your ideas, (non)beliefs, and opinions.

As a Christian, I came here to learn and to "build a bridge" after I read an article that stated Atheists are the most persecuted people in America. I have good friends who are atheists/agnostics and we confide in each other about many things. But they've never confided to me about this prejudice. When I asked them one day at lunch, their answer was, "Well, we didn't want to worry you with that. It really isn't any concern of yours." My reply was, "But it is my concern. My black friends, Muslim friends, Hispanic friends can talk to me about injustices, why can't you?"

Having grown up in the church all my life has sheltered me from prejudice as much as being born white and middle-class has. When you've only known one way of life, only one faith, only heard one rhetoric about a group of people, you stay the same and never grow. Had I not chosen the field of music as a career, requiring my travel to different countries, working with people of different creeds and customs, I would have never had such a diverse supply of friends. It hurts me to hear about these injustices. And I feel these injustices and prejudices stem from a lack of understanding.

So I came here, knowing I'd be met with suspicion, dislike, some rage. Yes, prejudice. But my word, what some of you have told me that has happened to you in the past, I don't blame you for your distrust and rejections. Not at all. Not at all.

Nevertheless, I came only to LEARN. To hear your stories. To get to know more of you and understand better. Lucky for me, I've always been curious of others different from me.

My first best friend was a little Chinese girl whose dad worked for mine, who spoke no English, who was Buddhist. "Be her friend. Look out for her," my dad told me. So I did and am I glad I did.

Yu Si was a mime, funny, and never boring. I learned quickly that we had different faiths. I loved her parents - so gentle, always smiling, never loud and domineering like mine. Mr Yen was still a firm parent. If I made a mistake, he's smile, point his finger at me and say, "Bui dui!" (Not done this way.) No shaming, no scolding. But he was an atheist, I knew. His wife began visiting our church with the children, including Yu Si. They sat obediently, quietly. In not sure how much they heard.

But then one day, Yu Si and I came home from school, and my dad was home early. He had to break the news to my friend that her father, only 38 yrs old, had died of a massive heart attack. Her mom was with my mom at the funeral home.

Our church, naturally, wanted the funeral there. But Mrs Yen said that wasn't how they did things. They would have a Buddhist ceremony. A memorial. My parents supported her decision. And after the funeral, she took their children back home to China. Yu Si and I never saw each other again.

But one day, in children's choir, we sang something that reminded me of Yu Si and her family. I missed her father's gentle, strong ways. I could still recall the sound of his voice. I left the choir crying. The pastor came to see how I was. I told him how much I missed the Yens. How I worried about Mr Yen and his children.

"Well, you have to understand child, Mr Yen wasn't a Christian. So he's in he'll now. And that's where his family will go there too unless they become Christian."

His words were so cold. I told him that he didn't know Mr Yen at all, and what right did he have to say where Mr Yen was. I left him and waited outside in the parking lot for my mom. When she arrived, I told her, crying, what the pastor said. She told my dad when we got home and he was furious. Dad was never much of a believer either, and he told the pastor we were leaving the church. He never stepped foot in a church again. Mom took me to another church.

That episode in my life affected me profoundly. To this day, I believe no one can judge another person just based on what they believe. After all, you can't lie about your beliefs.

Its that spirit that led me here, not a desire to evangelize, to "save" anyone from hell. Although I remained in the church, I formed my own beliefs. I don't espouse the words of the apostle Paul or anyone else in the Bible, except for Jesus of Nazareth, who befriended the outcast, and condemned the "holy", who tells me to love my neighbor. And that's what I'm trying to do.

While here, I have never preached or debated my beliefs. I've never challenged anyone's views or told them they were stupid, or foolish, or evil for their beliefs. However, there have been some here that have said that to me, that say I'm crazy or unintelligent for being a deist. Yet, I can see why, based on what I've read - the bullying, the cruelty some of you have faced at the hands of their own family.

I, too, have lived these experiences of yours in other ways. My family and I grew farther apart, until I longed for a time when I could live by my own conscience, and not be forced to live by the conscience of others.

The only way anyone can change their beliefs is within themselves, but if you don't believe, you just don't. No one can "convert" another.

Still, there is so much divisiveness in our country now, I'd like more than anything to come together somehow because we're stronger together. There are so many other ways to connect other than religion. We all want the freedom to live as ourselves, to provide for our loved ones.

I'm not trying to change your beliefs, but am only here to learn, understand better and make friends. We don't have to have the same religion to be friends. If I make anyone uncomfortable, of course, I'll go. But, I like the time I've spent here, the people I've met, the topics discussed. Its very enlightening.

But I'll leave if its too uncomfortable for you.

wouldn't it be just magical if humankind could acknowledge the diversity in our unity? we may all be individuals, but also born the exact same way.

I don't think you should go. I think your reasoning for joining is admirable and I wish everyone had a mind as open as yours.
Your post reminded me of my own childhood. As a very young girl, I met many other children from different backgrounds and we all just played together. There was no judgment. We asked each other lots of silly kid questions about our differences, but none were meant to provoke. We were kids and learning about the world together. We were all friends and all of our parents encouraged us and supported each other.
I don't believe in God, but I believe in your right to believe.
Building bridges is a far more useful thing to do rather than blowing them up.

@walklightly it certainly would!

"You could say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

@Lewellyn3, "imagine", the first song i ever dared singing solo on stage 🙂

I'm glad you're here. The attitude you bring with you is welcome. It is the preaching and criticism and finger-pointing by theists we don't want, and you're not doing any of that.

Very good story. You appear to be representative of the theists on this site that are not an insidious blight on reason so I (and I would bet the vast majority of us in these pages) have no problem sharing this space with you.

Your story of the preacher telling ". . . So he's in hell now. . ." is one of many reasons I don't wish to share these pages with that (not you) ilk. I could fill a page with similar incidents of Catholic preachers and other religious god fearing people inflicting much fear and suffering on (the most common) devout Catholics that were divorced and married again without paying the church for a full annulment. I know of many theists that died in absolute fear of hell as their preacher and congregation have convinced them they are sinful and will burn in hell forever for not paying the church it's due homage.

Some theists on these pages attack reason and truth promoting their superstitious faith (belief without evidence) based nonsense over fact (supported by evidence). I've run across theists that "hate science" and have stated, "well, you will suffer because of your science" Those "believers/theists" are the ones I have issues with as they evoke in me a great deal of pity for their damaged reasoning ability (unable to accept reality over superstition). This profoundly diminishes any optimism I have for a positive (fact based decision for best outcome) future for our society.

Hope you find this a beneficial place.

13

Keep a lid on it to the extent possible. Don't want to waste my energy hearing their tired theology ideology.

12

My being molested by a pastor notwithstanding, I simply do not trust ardent believers. The bottom line of their belief system is proselytizing...the ultimate agenda.

You bet they are 100% UNtrustworthy ....the only xian you can trust is a toddler on his 1st day in Sunday School ask him what lies he learned an hour later and we can undo the damage one nightmare later it may be too late for life

12

I think there should be some sort of puzzle to gain entrance that would sift out all the mentally unavailable

Mentally unavailable, Love it. lol

12

Not.... they can use Christian mingle or Muslim mingle or Hindi hookup out Buddha dates or zorasters xing.... the kinky exceptions van be wicca and Satanists, because they won't argue with people that aren't going to change their minds anytime soon....

11

I don’t really want them because I come here to get away from them. I do know there are wonderful religious people. I have to deal with them all day. I need a break from them when I am on my own time. You are called Agnostic.com the dating site for agnostics. Be what you call yourself, or what’s the point of this? They have their dating site already. They don’t need to be here too.

11

Are we allowed to eat them?

LOL..

Cooked? I'll put up the steak...Er, stake. We'll enjoy a good bonfire before dinner!

11

Oh for goodness sake, can these holy rollers not just fuck off to their churches and pray that we all burn in hell for eternity and then pat themselves on the back for their Xstian love and tolerance. They have the whole world as their playground that they can continue to make a mess of, leave us the fuck alone in our own space and we won't start breaking down the doors to their houses of mammon.

well said!

Yes, yes, and yes!

Yes !!

11

The whole point of coming here is to get away from other forums where people with our views are quite often disrespected and sent biblical quotations. I never shrink away from debate, but you just can't have a rational debate with brainwashed people who dint have the capacity for critical thought. i say keep them away!

i agree - it's pretty much my reasoning too: how can i expect a delusionist to discuss anything rationally?

@walklightly a baptist with 13 children invaded our Atheist group in Iowa 7 years ago and I played along with him for quite a while. ...nothing over 4 years ever fazed him. ....all the insanity in his bible would not shake his crucifixion thirst for grape juice&crackers on Sundays. ...not a bit of remorse threatening 13 children or me with eternal fire to my flesh nor the idiotic bribe fraud of heaven allegations. .....in his defense he was usually stone silent when I asked him direct yet leading questions as indicated SUPRA. ...never once did he express rage or resentment towards my American Atheist leadership in Iowa or South Carolina. ...talking to him is like talking to a pedophile in prison who won't give up his desire to rape girls QUID PRO QUO for parole. ....no surprise given he sired 13 kids no spontaneous abortions with the same woman....what WAS SURPRISING after the wife divorced him, an Atheist woman took him to bed frequently. ...thinking about those 2 always makes me limp

@GreenAtheist, that's the thing: i am not interested in religion. full stop. i'd never allow a delusionist to poison my immediate energy field in any way.

@Beach_slim, what are you trying to convey?

@Beach_slim, i'm talking about believers being rational about their imaginary friend - which obviously is an oxymoron.
btw, i claim nothing; i just state from my personal experience. no need - & no way! - to pick that apart.

@Beach_slim, i said:"how can i expect a delusionist to discuss anything rationally?", & i stand behind it. but hey, delude yourself, picking random words out of context, rejoicing in the attempt of finding fault in me. i'm plenty flawed, i can tell you that much. enjoy.

@Beach_slim what do you base that statement on?

11

Liberal, respectful religious people are okay with me. I have some friends who attend church or synagogue or mosque. They know that I do not practice religion and they are okay with that. It is the arrogant, aggressive, judgmental kind who should not be here, and if they come here to argue or preach, then, I hope the admins will kick them off. But the respectful religious - I have no problem with them.

SKH78 Level 8 May 21, 2018
11

Its a free country. I'm not even sure I belong here. I'm not athiest; I neither believe, nor dis-believe. I question, ponder, research, and believe in live and let live. I have yet seen evidence that God exists, but I haven't seen evidence that He doesn't.

Not that I'm an expert, but I think if you want to be here, then you belong. 🙂
I think we all question, or have questioned at some point, and we are free do too so here without being judged.
Welcome.

I am glad to meet you and I welcome you as a member of humanity. I have no strings added to that. Welcome. Nice to meet you.

I think you are closer to home than you know. Please read the link I supplied. It may just describe you. If it does then welcome home.

[en.wikipedia.org]

11

Anyone would think this place was overrun with God botherers, demanding that we change our ways. Where exactly is this happening? Are we on the same forums here?

I've been accused of being a theist on here, simply for being able to see some good in religion (the comfort it provides with respect to mortality, for example.) But I'm very much a non-believer. I don't deny the possibility of the universe being created by an external intelligence. I do rule out the possibility of a benevolent God who watches over us and steers things in the right direction for the righteous. There's too much evidence out there that this just isn't the case.

So I don't think theists are a problem on here at this point. I'm not saying they couldn't become one. Think of it like a gay bar: everyone should be welcome, as long as they come in with the right attitude. Walk in there and start spouting off about homosexuality is wrong, and you should expect to be shown the door.

you are commenting like an agnostic.

I've run into a few that attempt to diminish science (fact based demonstrable claims and observations and promote faith. I've run into a few that assert faith (belief without evidence) is a personal avenue to truth. Faith is the foundation of religion and for me those that promote faith over reality have crossed the agnostic/atheist boarder towards the dark side of superstition/religion.

11

If believers are joining then I'm leaving!!!!!

I think the Admins really need to look at this issue judging by the strength of feeling here. As others have said, we don't need a "safe space" but we do need somewhere we can feel able to be ourselves without being trolled or dragged into arguments that are not of our making.

It seems to me that this Group should not be for agnostics and athiests ... it should be for one or another. If we argue among ourselves, then there is no point. It is of considerable interest and concern to me that atheists are almost militant against the very existence of Christians. There is such a broad spectrum of belief and non-belief among peoples of this planet that no one has the right to dismiss the validity of what anyone ... anyone ... believes for themselves - especially people like me, an agnostic. If you don't know, then surely you want to find out. That's the point. If you close your mind then you never will find out. And if you're an atheist, why even be in this Group ... or any Group? An atheist believes that "the end" is the end ... so what's to argue ?????????

let me know where you're going, & i'll come with you.

@garlon999, you couldn't have made your prejudices, generalizations & authoritarian attitude clearer if you'd tried.

10

I just blocked a believer as he couldn't take a polite no. My answer has changed from no to HELL NO.

MizJ Level 8 Jan 19, 2019

Yes it's their alleged hell let them worry about knashing of teeth an searing eternal fire that does not kill pain but perpetuates painful punishment for us Atheists as our only religious crime is condemnation of their evil alleged bible gawd Jehobah yhwh Jesua Nasoret ghostholes alleged vaginal virgin Miriam

@GreenAtheist Do all "believers" believe in hell?

@Wildflower some people invent their own religions sort of like a faith buffet eating only certain offerings from the heaven bribes and hell threatening rapist priests

10

Lurking and learning is fine. Arguing and recruiting is not. I am surrounded by religious ignorance and intolerance daily and I was hoping for respite from it here.

The militant atheists are just as bad but they are what they are.

@GipsyOfNewSpain Militant anything is bad if you have a different viewpoint.

@DoctoralZombie Even with the same point of view... I just don't see the point of going around "badmouthing god, jesus, pope, religion, church, muhamed, islam, etc, etc, etc" on a 24/7 basis. My son once told me he couldn't understand how I did 20 years in the Military and I was the most anti military he knew. I simply told him... "It was My Job... Not My Life". So I was able to walk away upon retirement and enjoy life after without suffering the whidrawl that many ex military suffer once retirement comes. I didn't hangout on military bases after active duty. Did worked in one as a contractor. Did not visited a VA Hospital in 16 years... No Regrets of my time. I will do it again. Had a great time. But I am not Militant other than acknowledging that Life is for the Living and we most Live it Up. Enjoy Your TIme on Earth. Live Fully and Hearty. If you feel it is your call to be militant about anything do not stop from following your heart others may had a different point of view. But you already know that, Thanks.

@GipsyOfNewSpain, militant atheists accepted on agnostic.com, militant believers not invited, not welcome, not accepted here. simple.

@walklightly Okay.

militant theist "GAYS WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER, THEY SHOULD BE KILLED, NO RIGHTS AT ALL" at the top of their lungs.

militant atheist "NO, YOU'RE WRONG, BECAUSE OF YOUR SUPERSTITION".

yeah, just as bad....

@HereticSin They can go join alterboysareyummy.com and fullquiverloves9yearoldgirls.org and leave me alone. I am not required to respect bad ideas. You however are free to if you like.

10

I think its stupid, theres apps for believers. They're just muckin up the works

SuziQ Level 4 July 13, 2018
10

This is only place without Christianity slipping through the cracks. Would like to keep it that way. It would create drama, and I don't do drama.

10

I'm against letting them join. In fact, I thought this site existed to give agnostics and atheists a place to gather away from believers.

There are plenty of places where believers can mingle with us, such as Facebook. Please don't ruin this place!

Go back and read the rules to join. All beliefs are welcome.

Too bad.

@AtlGeekWoman yes for the ignorant.

10

Well it all depends on what direction you want the site to go in. Allowing believer will start heated debates. Some members may be turn off by that. Me personailty I'll just burn them...

10

I was happy and excited to find this website. I felt like I was coming home...that I am speaking with friends. There are few individuals in my life with whom I can freely discuss any subject in its entirety. There are entire subject areas that I cannot mention in discussions and social engagements. This is exhausting and frustrating. I would prefer not having people of faith on this site. PS...I really liked the suggestion of 'acknowledging' someone's beliefs as opposed to respecting them.

10

I have not had the chance to encounter a "believer" on this site (thank 'god'😉, but I'm inclined to believe that those who are joining are simply trolls, trying to convert... the completely unprepared since most of the people here know more about the bible than they do.

I'm often told that "the reason you don't believe in God is that you haven't read the bible."

I respond by saying, "No! The reason you believe in God is that YOU haven't read the bible."

10

It's not about having a safe space. This is primarily a dating site, not a debating site. When I'm looking for someone like myself that I might want to get to know a little better, it's distracting to have to filter out the creationists. Most of them aren't here to find someone, they're her to stir up trouble and possibly ruin the site for others so it becomes irrelevant. No, believers shouldn't be allowed here. You won't find me on "Christian Mingle".

10

I’m opposed as I can think of no benefit to allowing believers to join.

10

I think if religious people were allowed, it would let people join with the intent to convert us to their religion. I get enough of that from my family.

10

I just joined today. I am concerned about the actions of "religious" people more and more.I live in a predominantly Catholic area and in the past have lived in the Deep South. I would like to be able to share my thoughts and get responses without the fear of attempts at conversion.

at this point months later I don't care if they join or not. THere are ways to deal with them if they are offensive

at this point months later I don't care if they join or not. THere are ways to deal with them if they are offensive

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